Mic Drop

Insights From a Bureau Legend (ft. Martin Perelmuter)

Episode Summary

If anyone knows the speaker market, it’s Martin Perelmuter. Over the course of his extensive career, he’s grown his Toronto-based Speakers Spotlight to a team of three-dozen members managing over 2,500 events a year. This week, we talk to Martin about the difference between the Canadian and U.S. speaking market, hot streaks for speakers, how the speaking industry has changed, and where it’s headed next.

Episode Notes

Insights From a Bureau Legend (ft. Martin Perelmuter)

A top name in the speaker industry tells us what it means to succeed in this business

OPENING QUOTE:

“Whenever we look at new speakers I always look at not just who they are today and what they've done up until now, but look at who they could be 5 or 10 years from now and look at the potential.”

-Martin Perelmuter

GUEST BIO:

Martin Perelmuter is the president and co-founder of Toronto based Speakers Spotlight. The agency is one of the top speaker Bureaus in the world, with 36 full-time team members booking over 2,500 events each year. Martin is a self-described unapologetic idealist and has played a key role in the speaking industry for over 25 years. He serves on the board of governors of the International Association of Speakers Bureaus and is currently the president-elect, taking the helm in 2024.

Links:

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[8:55] - Canada vs. U.S.A.

Not a competition — just a discussion

As someone who has found major success in both the Canadian and U.S. speaker markets, what does Martin have to say about their differences and similarities?

He highlights how Canadians are “...more like the British in terms of…social values and the way Canadians think. For a US speaker speaking in Canada, the most important thing to keep in mind is you are speaking in a different country, we're not the 51st state.”

His point? You can’t walk onto a Canadian stage and deliver the exact same keynote you would deliver in the U.S.— and vice versa. Even simply acknowledging that there are differences between Canada and the U.S. can go a long way in endearing you to audiences in either country when you’re speaking abroad.

[25:29] - What Do Planners Want Today Versus Ten Years Ago?

A decade of change in a fast-moving industry

Martin highlights the movement toward more “authentic” speakers, who eschew the three-piece-suits for t-shirts and jeans, eliminating barriers between themselves and their audiences. Meanwhile, the industry has begun placing particular value on those who have actually been “in the trenches” — living real experiences that they can then go speak about.

And, of course, there was the rise of TED events which made public speaking a much more visible, accessible phenomenon. Now people are more familiar with keynote speakers — and better able to detect when they’re not authentic.

[37:38] - The Next Ten Years

Looking into Martin’s crystal ball

Martin acknowledges that while the last few years have shown us it's impossible to predict with certainty what will happen, there are certainly some trends to watch.

He believes we’ll see greater adoption of tools that help speakers get their message through to people and see lasting impact. Whether that looks like regular Zoom chats with clients or virtual Q&A sessions — or something we haven’t thought up yet — that ongoing engagement is going to be central to in-person and virtual events.

Different platforms might come and go, but the purpose of keynote speaking will always remain: impact and behavior change in people that need and want it most.

[42:29] - What Puts a Speaker in the “Top Five”?

Martin shares his thoughts on what makes for a go-to speaker

Josh asks Martin what characteristics or attributes make someone an “inner circle, top five go-to” speaker for a bureau leader like Martin?

His reply is simple — flexibility, reliability, and the willingness to put in work. When a speaker can adapt to a wide range of audiences and events, will always bend over backward to deliver for their clients, and is willing to improve anyway they can, they’ll always be in-demand among the bureaus.

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Hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it’s starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.

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ABOUT THE HOST:

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Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.

Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza.

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Episode Transcription

Martin Perelmuter:

Whenever we look at new speakers I always look at not just who they are today and what they've done up until now, but look at who they could be 5 or 10 years from now and look at the potential.

Josh Linkner:

Hey Mic Drop enthusiasts, Josh Linkner here. Delighted to be bringing you season two of Mic Drop. I love our conversations with speakers and industry leaders alike, so we can unpack the industry and we can all perform better. Let's get after it and get better together.

Mic Drop is brought to you by Impact Eleven, the most diverse and inclusive community built for training and developing professional speakers to get on bigger stages at higher fees with greater impact, faster. They're not just elevating an industry that we all know and love, they work with thousands of speakers to launch and scale their speaking businesses. Accelerating time to success, earning tens of millions of speaking fees, landing Bureau representation, securing book deals, and rising to the top of the field. To learn more about the Impact Eleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's impactE-L-E-V-E-N.com/connect.

Today on Mic Drop, I sit down with Martin Perelmuter, the president and co-founder of Toronto based Speakers Spotlight. The agency is one of the top speaker Bureaus in the world, with 36 full-time team members booking over 2,500 events each year. Martin is a self-described unapologetic idealist and has played a key role in the speaking industry for over 25 years. He serves on the board of governors of the International Association of Speakers Bureaus and is currently the president-elect, taking the helm in 2024. This episode is also personal for me considering Martin was the first Bureau professional that took a shot on me over 15 years and 1200 keynotes ago.

In today's conversation, we cover the key differences between the US and the Canadian speaking market. We cover hot streaks, what they are, how to get them, and how to hold onto them, how the industry has changed dramatically in the last five years, and where things are headed in the future. We talk about what it takes for a Bureau to take a bet on a new speaker and what best practices speakers can embrace to establish and then deepen trust-based relationships. I know you'll enjoy today's conversation with Bureau Industry leader and all around good human being. Martin Perelmuter.

Martin, welcome to Mic Drop.

Martin Perelmuter:

Great to be here, Josh. Looking forward to our chat.

Josh Linkner:

So you and I go way back, we've been friends for a long time. I remember over a decade ago coming to visit you in Toronto and my, how things have changed. So maybe before we get into the future though, give us a look backwards. Tell us a little bit about you, Speakers Spotlight, and how you got into this crazy business.

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, well try to make a long story very short, but 28 years ago my lovely wife Farah and I got married, we moved, we quit our jobs and we started a business all within a couple months. And we stumbled into this amazing industry because Farah's uncle was actually doing a little bit of speaking and I was practicing law at the time, Farah in marketing and PR, he had asked her to help him out with his marketing materials and that's kind of how we stumbled into this. And then we were 25 years old at the time, sort of young and naive enough to think we could start a business together. How hard could it possibly be? And here we are, 28 years later, still married, still get along pretty well, still like each other. The business has definitely evolved way beyond what we had ever anticipated when we got started.

Josh Linkner:

It's fantastic. I'm so happy for your success and obviously there are many wonderful people in the Bureau community, and I'm not just saying this cause I'm on the phone with you, but in terms of integrity and passion for the industry and being a cooperative partner throughout, you're just held not only by me but I think by many, in the highest possible regard.

So one thing I noticed, the day I walked into your office for the first time, I know I've been many times, you have a quote about what can happen in 60 seconds. Would you mind sharing that with our group?

Martin Perelmuter:

Sure. 60 minutes. In 60 minutes.

Josh Linkner:

60 minutes, sorry.

Martin Perelmuter:

Although it could happen in 60 seconds too, but we have this idea that a speech may last 60 minutes, but its impact can last forever. And to me, that epitomizes why I love this industry. What gets me out of bed in the morning is this idea that we're not slot fillers. We never want to be in the slot filling business, we always wanted to be in the impact business, the behavior change business. And I know from my own personal experience and hearing from thousands and thousands of clients and attendees of events over the years that a speech can really have a lasting impact. And while I'm not so naive or pollyannish to think that it's going to walk out of a room after an hour and their whole life is going to be changed, it can definitely plant the seeds that can lead to serious change, whether it's at work, people's professional lives or at home with their families or in their communities. So yeah, that's the mantra that I believe more today than ever that while a speech may only last 60 minutes, the impact of it can truly last forever.

Josh Linkner:

I love that and hopefully that's the reason that's driving most people in our industry. Certainly you can make a good living and there's other benefits, but it's not the self-congratulatory rah, rah. I mean a standing ovation's nice, but only to the extent that it's making a real impact on other people. And I just love that we share that belief.

So when you think about Speakers Spotlight, and just as we get to know you a little bit, obviously you're based in Toronto, Canada, you service clients all over the world. But maybe just give us a little bit of sense of what the Bureau looks like today in terms of size or number of speeches, Canada versus us. Give us a little flavor.

Martin Perelmuter:

Sure. Yeah. So as I mentioned, when we started it was just Farah and I out of a spare bedroom of our apartment. We thought best case scenario is maybe one day we'll have two or three people working with us and we'll get it out of the house. We really did have pretty modest goals. But today we're a team of 36 people. So our team is spread out across Canada, but most of them are in the Toronto area. We also have an office in Western Canada and Calgary. And so it's just 36 of the most amazing, passionate, smart, committed people that I've ever had a chance to work with. I'm really lucky to have such a great group of people to work together with. And half of our team, 18 of the 36, have been with the company for 10 or more years. So it's a really experienced team. So those are sort of the OGs and then we have the new blood, the younger people coming in and bringing fresh ideas into the Bureau, which is amazing. So having this mix of experience and expertise and wisdom and fresh new ideas and energy, I think, has been a really great thing for us as a company and just individually just to work with such dynamic people.

Josh Linkner:

Love it. And what percentage, roughly, of the business is Canada based versus not Canada based?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, so we're doing about 2,500 bookings a year, 2,500 speaking engagements a year on average the last few years. And probably about 80% of that is in Canada. So it's definitely our biggest market by far. And then the remaining 20%, most of that is in the US but we've worked in about 50 countries now altogether. Other than the US we've seen some great opportunities recently in Australia. I think with virtual engagements that's helped us reach some markets that have been traditionally tougher to reach due to just the expense of flying speakers halfway across the world and that kind of thing. So a lot in Europe, South America as well, but definitely North America and in particular Canada has been our biggest market.

Josh Linkner:

That makes a ton of sense. And just as we get to know you a little bit more about the Bureau, some bureaus are mostly exclusive speakers, some have no exclusive speakers. Can you give us a sense of your exclusive, non-exclusive mix?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, so I guess what you'd call hybrid where we have both of those relationships, we have about 70 exclusive speakers, mostly Canadian speakers, and then we've got about 400 speakers on the website on the roster altogether. And so the remainder, what would that be? 300 and some odd speakers would be non-exclusive. But the majority of our work does come from those exclusive speakers that accounts for probably easily half of our bookings, if not more.

Josh Linkner:

Makes a ton of sense. And so now that we have learned a little bit about you, I'd love to shift our attention to those listening, the speakers of all shapes and sizes that they're both emerging, newer speakers and experienced pros trying to get to the next level. Could you help us understand a little bit from your experience, obviously you have tons of experience in Canada, what should US based speakers think about the Canada market and what should Canadian speakers think about the US market?

Martin Perelmuter:

That's a great question. The markets are really different and I think because Canadians and Americans kind of look the same, we speak the same language for the most part. We watch the same TV shows, Netflix series, movies, listen to the same music, cheer for a lot of the same teams in sports, I think a lot of times, especially Americans, I think assume that we're just like them. And the reality is that we're actually not, we're probably more like the British in terms of values and social values and the way Canadians think. So I think for a US speaker speaking in Canada, the most important thing to keep in mind is you are speaking in a different country, we're not the 51st state. We're very close friends and neighbors. We love our American friends and family, but we are different. So I think for US speakers speaking Canada, I think one of the things to keep in mind is acknowledging that because I think some Canadians have a bit of an inferiority complex, to be honest.

It's sort of sleeping next to an elephant. We have this massive neighbor right to the south, and so some Canadians, I think, sometimes feel a little bit insecure about that. So when American speakers come up and acknowledge the fact that they're in Canada, they use examples, case studies or data if possible, if that's part of the presentation that's Canadian, great. If there isn't Canadian data to support what they're speaking about, then acknowledge that and say, this is the US data on this particular topic. I couldn't find the Canadian data, I'm not sure if it exists. But I believe that the data in the US probably fits pretty well with Canada, I know we're not exactly the same, but I think there's some parallels we can draw here. That kind of thing goes a long way. I think the worst thing a US speaker can do is just walk in and just deliver these exact same speech they would deliver in the US assuming that we're the same. So that would be the biggest piece of advice I'd give to American speakers coming up here. The other thing is Canadian audiences, I don't know Josh, if you found this, but tend to be a little bit more reserved than American audiences. So if you're used to getting big laughs at certain points of your talk or big ovations and you don't get the same response, don't panic, don't think it's not going well. It's just that Canadians are a little bit more reserved. So we may not jump up and cheer when a speaker's done the same way they may in the US but it doesn't mean that it's not going well.

For Canadians going down to the US, same thing. I mean obviously different country, you got to take into account those differences. I think that the biggest difference between the markets frankly are the fees and the Canadian market, the fees are just not the same as they are, I think the US market is an outlier. I don't know if there's another market anywhere in the world that really is similar in terms of what speakers can charge. The Canadian sort of domestic market for speakers is much more similar to Australia or the UK for example, where we just don't have the budgets. And a lot of that is a function of just population size and audience size. So if you want me to talk about that. But I think sometimes US speakers are surprised to see that their fees sometimes don't necessarily work here. And so they may not have as many opportunities, but there are clients that will pay great fees here just not in the same way, not the same frequency as in the US market.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And just as a general, I know it skews in depend on a lot of factors, but if somebody is, say a $30,000 speaker in the United States, what approximately is the sort of discount percentage that they might expect in Canada?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, I mean I'm not suggesting that a US speaker should actually discount their fee. If they're getting $30,000, that's their fee. And I get it. And so I wouldn't suggest to a US speaker, oh you should, let's say cut your fee in half to come speak in Canada to have the privilege of speaking to Canadians. It's a great country, it's a great place to visit and do business in, but I realize there's economics factors. But I think that my understanding of the US market, and again we do a fair bit of business in the US. We work with a lot of US speakers and I have a lot of friends who are US Bureau people. There's a really good market for say 20 to $30,000 professional speakers in the US. These are people who are not necessarily famous. Maybe they've written a book or two, maybe they haven't even written a book or two.

But people who are really on top of their game do a great job, 20 to 30,000. The equivalent in Canada is probably the 10 to 15,000 range, to be honest. So it's about half. There's a lot of really amazing Canadian speakers in that 10 to 15 range. Once you get north of 15,000 in Canada, the number of opportunities drops. And most of the speakers who are charging north of 20,000 in Canada are celebrities, quasi celebrities, Olympians, people who are on Dragons Den, which is the Canadian equivalent of Shark Tank, that kind of thing. Astronauts, famous athletes. So there's just not a big market for professional speakers in Canada in that let's say $30,000 range. It just doesn't exist in the same way as it does in the US.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, that's very helpful to understand that. Thank you. So I remember Martin about 1200 keynotes ago, funny enough, I don't know if you know this fun fact, you were the first bureau that booked me for an engagement. So you're my very first bureau partner by the way, for which I remained deeply grateful. And that was great that you gave a young guy in the business anyway a shot. How are you doing that now? So in other words, you have a whole stable of speakers that you know and trust. You have 70 exclusives, you have a client that's, every client's important. How do you know when to take a bet on a new speaker versus only recommending what you already know and trust?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, I mean, I have trouble booking a new speaker who I haven't seen or at least met with. So I don't like recommending people that I haven't seen speak in person. Sometimes a really good video can compensate for that. And so doing my due diligence, looking at video reels and even full presentations on video can help with that. So I don't like taking any risks. I think that the reason a lot of meeting professionals come to us or any bureau is to mitigate that risk of hiring speakers. So I'm not going to test somebody out that I think is unproven, but to use you as an example, I mean, we had met, I think you'd sent me some video. Your sort of business track record spoke for itself. And so I was very confident booking you for the first time because even though you were relatively new to the speaking industry, you had a lot of experience in the business world and having met with you, I had full confidence that you would do a great job.

But whenever we look at new speakers, I always look at not just who they are today and what they've done up until now, but look at who they could be five or 10 years from now and look at the potential. And we've taken, I guess some risks or some chances on some new speakers, but we're not going to put them in front of a big audience until they've proven themselves. So sometimes you start smaller, smaller stages and kind of work your way up. But definitely I would not want to be taking any risks with our clients' events because that's not fair to them.

Josh Linkner:

So with that in mind, what are some of the best practices that a new speaker can embrace to actually get to know you, to gain your trust, not you only as Martin, but you as an agency, to gain your trust and to start initiating a relationship? What are some approaches they can do? Where should they avoid overstepping? Maybe just give us a little bit of counsel on how if someone really is ready, if they've got the killer reel, they've got the experience, they're ready to step into the arena, what's the best way to initiate a relationship with Speaker Spotlight?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, no, it's a great question. I think the key is what you said there is being ready, bureau ready, or however you want to describe it, having the great reel, having a package that you can send that an agent or an agency can take a look at and get a good sense of who you are. So I think that is step one, being ready. We've had situations in the past where someone approaches us, tells us they're ready, we go out and see them and they're clearly not. And I feel badly to be honest with them in some ways, and I'm actually willing to give someone a second chance. But there is that expression, you only get one chance to make a first impression. And so I would definitely be cautious and wait till you really feel like you're ready to get in front of that bureau, because many times you'll get that one shot.

Then if you're at that point, I think reaching out with an email is fine. Again, a lot of bureaus get a lot of these emails unsolicited every single day. So sometimes it's hard to cut through that. If you know a speaker who maybe is on the roster that's a friend of yours or you've gotten to know, maybe an introduction through them could be helpful just so that it kind of cuts through some of that and that will probably get the agent's attention a little bit better. And then I think, you provide the information, make it really easy. Don't overload the agent with tons of information. It's basically, here's who I am, here's what I speak about, here's a link. If this is interest, let me know, love to discuss it further. And then I wouldn't start following up every week right away because it can be annoying for agents when speakers are following up with them constantly.

But I think it's reasonable after a little bit of time, couple weeks maybe to just do a quick check-in and see if they've had a chance to watch the reel. Because oftentimes my bet would be an agent may not watch the first time, but if they get a little nudge a couple weeks later and just with a link to the video and say, Hey, three minutes or whatever, I think they'll usually take the time to take a look at that and then, you can't push too hard. But at the same time, you can't be too passive. So I think once you do that, just ask for feedback. There's an expression, you probably know it well from your work in venture capital, that if you want advice, ask for money. If you want money, ask for advice. And I just think it's such good advice.

It's so true. So if you want bookings, if that's what the speaker wants, maybe ask for advice from the agent in terms of what would you do if you're in my shoes, is there anything I can do to help? Because often when you ask for money, you end up getting advice, maybe not the advice you want. So that's helpful. And then I think the best single thing you can do, if it's possible, is if you have an event coming up in the Bureau City, invite them to come see you speak, tell them you're going to introduce some, say, if you come see me speak, I'll introduce you to the meeting planner who hired me. Maybe it'll end up being a new client for you as well.

So a lot of agents, their ears will perk up when they hear that opportunity to find a new client. But I think if it's a serious agency and they take what they do seriously, they will take the time to come and see you. Because once you've done that, then you know for sure, okay, yes, this is someone that we could do a lot of work with or no, maybe it's just not the right fit. And either way it's just better to know that than to drag it out.

Josh Linkner:

Becoming a keynote speaker is an amazing profession. The top performers earn millions while driving massive impact for audiences around the world. But the quest of speaking glory can be a slow route with many obstacles that cannot knock even the best speakers out of the game. If you're serious about growing your speaking business, the season pros at ImpactEleven can help. From crafting your ideal positioning to optimizing your marketing effectiveness, to perfecting your expertise and stage skills. As the only speaker training and development community run by current high level speakers at the top of the field, they'll boost your probability of breakthrough success and help you get there faster. That's why nearly every major speaker bureau endorses and actively participates in ImpactEleven. The ImpactEleven community provides you unparalleled access to the people, relationships, coaching, resources, and accountability that compresses your time to success. To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's impactE-L-E-V-E-N.com/connect.

And so the other side of the coin, what, you don't have to name any names of course, but what are some approaches that people have done that really blew it, like they were annoying or you're just like, eventually you're just like, just stop. Enough. And whether that's somebody making an initial approach or someone that you work with over time that eventually you said, no mas, I just don't want to work with that person anymore. And the reason I ask it is not to be negative anyway, but just so we as a community learn what to look out for and to make sure we avoid those traps.

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, I mean, I'll think of ... I definitely won't mention a name, but I can think of one in particular where they reached out, they sent the information. I like to get back to people. I'll say, "Hey, thanks for sending this over. I'll take a look. I'll let you know if there's interest." So a week or two goes by, they follow up and I say, "Yeah, great. I did take a look at it, not sure if it's a fit right now, but we'll be in touch." And that's part me, just don't love saying to people, "No, never. Leave me alone." So I like to leave the door open and just try to be polite and what have you. So then the person continued to follow up quite regularly, at least once a month, if not more often. And then finally one day they called, which was okay, and basically got upset and said, "Look, I'm on 47 different bureau websites, why aren't I on yours?"

And I said, "Well look, if you're on 47, you probably don't need us, for one thing. So I don't know why you're calling me so much because you should probably invest more in those 47 relationships than trying to get your 48th." But also I was just very honest and I said, "I just don't think it's a fit." And then they got very defensive and rather than being like, "Hey, is there anything I could do?" It was more just like, "Well, that doesn't make any sense because I'm doing lots of work with lots of other people," and I guess I get it. Pride comes into play and ego and it's nothing personal. That's the thing. I have no personal vendetta obviously against anybody. It's just we look at things from bureau point of view and there might be different reasons.

Another time I can think of a speaker basically said, "Look, there's four or five speakers on your website," and then they name the speakers and they said, "I am better than those speakers. So I don't understand why you would work with them and not me." Again, not a great approach. So I think it takes a lot of humility. I've been essentially in sales for 28 years, the first 10 or 15 years at the bureau. That's pretty much all I did. And it takes a lot of humility to get rejected, to have people not return your calls, and you just got to take it and play the long game and not burn bridges and not lose patience. And sometimes it's just meant to be and sometimes it's not. And I would say if it's doesn't seem like it, then just focus your time and energy on other bureaus that seem to appreciate more what you do. That would be my advice.

Josh Linkner:

One observation that I've had working with many friends in the bureau community over the years is you get on a hot streak sometimes. And the way I interpret that would be, let's say Martin, it was you and I were teaming up and I'm in your sort of proverbial top five. And that doesn't mean top five favorite people. Just I'm one of your go-tos. And so if someone calls and asks for something specific, you know where to route it, but if it's kind of like a jump ball, you might say, "Okay, I've got this stable of people that are top of mind that I know can handle a lot of different things. They're easy to work with, whatever. So I'm going to toss them in."

And I will say, by the way, as a speaker, sometimes you're in someone's top five and then you fall out of it and no fault to your own. Maybe there's someone else entering it. So I guess my question to you is, do you agree with that top five kind of principle on a rolling basis? And then secondly, what has someone done to get in your top five and stay there? What are the characteristics or attributes that would make someone in your mind be inside that sort of inner circle, top five go-to recommendations?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, I think it's a great ... I agree with it. I never thought of it necessarily like that, but I do agree. There is a small group of speakers that you just, they're your go-to people. And it's funny, right? No matter what the brief is, I mean within reason, you can find a way how they fit in because you just know that they're going to show up and they're going to do a great job. So I think the qualities that get people in there, just the biggest thing is probably just the flexibility and ease of working with them. So knowing that they're going to jump through hoops and they're going to do whatever they can to make sure that that client is going to be thrilled both with their presentation and with how they operate off the stage, behind the scenes, before the event and that kind of thing.

So I think that that is such an important part of it is just the reliability, the knowing that they're going to bend over backwards to make that client happy and they're going to make your life easy in your client's life easy. No drama, not become that sort of difficult speaker that has a million demands that seem unreasonable. So I think that to me, it's obviously the quality of what they deliver on stage, but that experience off stage and knowing that you can call them in almost any situation could be a last minute booking because somebody canceled. It could be not the most desirable place in the world to travel in February. We have a few of those up here in Canada for sure that probably wouldn't normally plan your vacation to.

But it's work and the people who are willing to do it and do it gladly and not like they're doing you any favors, I think those are the ones that really tend to get in that sort of elite group and stay there. And I think it's the same things that get you there that keep you there. But you're right, sometimes someone could fall out and through nobody's fault. So sometimes things just go in waves. Momentum is such an important thing in this industry like it is in most businesses and in life in general. So once you've got that momentum going, you want to keep it going. And if it starts to slip a bit, then you just do what you can to prove that, you know, should be back in that group.

Josh Linkner:

So switching gears from the speaker to the planner, to the buyer, I'd love to get your perspective on how, what's different now than it was, for example, 10 years ago, and I'll start the conversation. I mean, my observation maybe 10, 15 years ago, you had the Zig Ziglar phenomenon, someone in a pinstriped suit with a big bright pocket square and it was very exaggerated. It wasn't sort of warm and conversational and authentic. Where today you see the stage skills are very different. It's more warm, more revealing, more humility, less sort of exaggerated cliches and such. So that would be one. But what else has changed? What are planners wanting differently today than they were 10 years ago?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, great question. Yeah, I agree with it. I remember the first time I saw Gary V, Gary Vaynerchuk, I saw a video of him. It must have been late 2000s, like maybe 2008, 2009, 2010, somewhere around there. And I remember calling Bryce, I called my office, I said, "You got to see this guy." I said, "This is the future we're looking at right here. It's no longer [inaudible 00:28:54] with the perfect jaw and the $2,000 suit. It's someone, it's a guy in a dirty t-shirt and jeans and he's swearing, but it's so authentic." And I remember that moment of thinking, "I think the page has just turned." It really felt like that. And so I agree with that.

I think practitioners, people who have done things, so it's one thing to get up and speak about something, but if you've actually done it, if you've been in the trenches, I think that there's definitely a movement more towards that type of speaker. Not just some person who decides one day they want to be a professional speaker and their expertise is leadership, even though they've never actually been in a leadership position, but people who've actually done it, been in the trenches are still there.

So those are a couple things. In terms of the actual speaker, I think that TED has been a big impact on the event because people would watch TED Talks online, most people would maybe if they're in a professional setting, maybe go to one or two conferences a year, see a couple of professional speakers a year, and that was it. So unless you're on the committee to hire the speaker, you would never watch a speaker video. But then of course the TED phenomena happens, and then TED Talks became very popular and now a lot of people go to events, watch dozens if not more talks throughout the year just for fun even.

So when they're at an event, I think their BS detectors are a lot better. They can tell the difference between someone who's really been there and done it and knows what they're talking about versus someone who's maybe read a couple books and put together a speech and memorized it. So that's a big shift. And I think in terms of the planners and how they approach it, I think there's a little bit more caution I think in it. I think these are obviously really important decisions and I think that the amount of due diligence that planners do, wanting to see ... obviously video that is helpful, testimonials, client references, even have a pre-event call with the speaker to make sure that they're the right fit. I think that process has changed a little bit. Gone, it feels like, are the days where someone just sort of reaches out and you send them three ideas and they pick one and they book it and that's it. And it happens really quickly.

It feels like it's a more drawn out process now. More people may be involved in making the decisions than in the past, which I think is a great thing. I think these are important decisions, and I think they shouldn't be taken lightly. At the end of the day, if it was my event, I'd want to make sure that the person I was putting on stage, I had a really good feeling for what they were going to be able to deliver. So I hope that answers the question. Those are a couple thoughts.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, totally. One other one I'd love to get your perspective on. In the past, let's say someone was a sales speaker. So the requirement would be you'd spend 60 minutes of your 60 minutes talking about sales and how that could impact the business. So in other words, you're delivering business value. To me anyway, I've seen a shift where customers want business value, but they also want some personal value. On the other hand, if it goes too far in the other direction, if it's all sort of self-help, personal healing, that might may not be the best for a corporate buyer. So when you think about that as a continuum of personal to organizational, where are you seeing that the center of the bell curve in terms of what customers want and are willing to pay for? Is it more on the business side or more on the personal side, somewhere in between?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, it really does depend on the client and on the event. And for some it is largely personal, but I think in a business setting there's got to be some takeaway, some benefit, some value that the speaker's going to leave people in the audience that is going to help them do their job better or be better professionals. And so I think that that is obviously a big part of our industry. There's speakers who do it more, the personal thing, but they speak at more sort of B2C type events. So more public facing events versus corporate events. I personally, I think a great speaker is one where when they're, even if it's a purely a business related topic, when they're finished speaking, you kind of feel like you know them a little bit. You've gotten to know them, you have a sense of what they're all about. Maybe they provide some personal anecdotes that maybe even drive home the point that they're talking about. But I think that that's always a good thing. I think that a speaker comes in and it's just pure business and the audience doesn't feel as connected with the speaker. So if I had to put a number on the continuum, I'd say it's sort of 75/25 skewed in the direction of more business content. But I think that it's always great when a speaker can show up as a whole person because we have different sides, different assets, and share a little bit about themselves and who they are and relate that back to the audience and provide some content that may not only make them better at their jobs but might make them better parents or better spouses or just better people in general. Some things that might help them beyond work.

I think that that's a winning combination where people take away something, they go like, "You know what? I think I can relate to my clients better, but I also think I can relate to my kids or my spouse better as well. I can use some of this in my personal life." That I think is hugely valuable.

Josh Linkner:

We've talked about speakers, we've talked about buyers, and I just want to spend our last few minutes talking a little bit about our industry. This is sort of an oddball industry. Most people don't realize the size of it. It's fairly fragmented. There's a lot of wonderful things. There's beautiful friendships across technical competitors, and I'm sure there's some things that could be improved. So my question to you, as someone who's playing an influential role, not just in your own bureau but in the industry in a more broad sense, if you had a magic wand and you could wave it a couple times, is there anything about our industry that you'd want to change?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, as you may know, I'm president elect at IASB, so in 2024, I take on that role and I've been thinking a little bit about it, and I wish I had a magic wand, but I think that the thing is we're an unregulated industry. And so for someone like me, I come from a legal background, there's things you do and things you don't do as a lawyer. And if you break rules, there's consequences and you can get disbarred. And then many industries in many there's that. I think if you're a real estate agent, there's ethical ways to behave and unethical. And if you're unethical, there's consequences. So I would love to see the industry, and I don't know how this can be done, but bring everybody into our professional association. And that means they have to abide by the rules of professional conduct.

And if they don't, there should be consequences because unfortunately, there are bureaus out there who don't house always act ethically, who misrepresent who they represent on their websites to confuse the public. Trick people into going to them. And it's really unfortunate because it affects everybody. If someone has a bad experience with an agency, that may impact their desirability to want to work with any agency in the future. And I had that happen once. I reached out to a new client and they basically said, "Look, we worked with a speakers bureau a couple years ago. We had a horrible experience and we're never working with one again." And I said, "Okay, well I'm really sorry to hear that. We're not all created equally." And I tried to turn it on them. And the client was in the financial services. I said, "Would you agree that there are rogue financial advisors out there?"

And they said, "Yeah, absolutely." I said, "So do you think that I should never work with a financial advisor because there are rogue financial advisors?" They said, "No, our people are actually good at their job." I said, "Great." I said, "All I'm asking is consider giving us a chance because you'll see that we're not all the same." And didn't happen that day, but we ended up landing this client eventually. So I think that when people operate below that bar of ethics and professionalism, it affects all of us. And so I would love to just try to figure out a way to raise the whole industry, the level of professionalism, ethics that people work with, because at the end of the day that actually benefits all of us. So that would be my dream. And if you have any ideas of how I can do this in my term next year, I am all ears. I'd love to chat with you another time about it.

Josh Linkner:

Absolutely agree with you. Game on that one. And I love your pivot on winning the business, and I'm not surprised at all that you're able to do that. So last question for you, Martin, and again, I'm so grateful for your time today and your friendship over the years. I look forward to many more years together with you and Farah. But the question I had for you is where do you see things headed? You mentioned you're going to be the president of the International Association of Speaker Bureaus coming up in a year or so, and I know you spent a lot of time thinking about not just where we were, where we are, but where we're heading. What is your crystal ball telling you about what the next sort of five to 10 years might look like in our industry?

Martin Perelmuter:

Yeah. Well, one thing we've certainly seen over the last few years is it's hard to predict what is going to happen. We've seen a lot of change, but I think that the existence of virtual presentations, which was basically non-existent until three years ago, is here to stay in one form or another. I remember you and I, we had a number of chats going back 10 years or more about what the future of the industry can look like and these ideas of how do you make the learning stick? How do you keep the learning alive and different ideas we had bounced around of digital platforms and technology of how following a keynote, if you do a keynote today for a group, you can't chase them around for the next 12 months and make sure they're doing the things that you suggested they do. But there are ways that we've seen accelerated in the last few years that this can be done in a really effective way.

So I'm a big believer that, as I said at the start, we're in the behavior change business, we're in the impact business. Anything that we or speaker can do to increase the likelihood that learning sticks and that behavior change happens, I think is a good thing. And I think that we're going to see more and more adoption of some of these tools that can help a speaker get their message through to people and have it actually have a lasting impact. And again, they can plant those seeds in that hour, but there's lots of things that can be done, whether it's regular Zoom chats with the client, with the audience, where people in the audience can ask the speaker questions and get into some specifics, whether it's some digital content that can follow on with a speech. All of those things I think are things we are going to see more of.

We talked about it in the past and the general feeling was the industry just wasn't quite ready for it yet. And I think now they actually are. I think that the last three years have shown us that you can deliver really powerful messages and different platforms, not just being on a stage. And now, thank goodness, in person conferences are back in a big way. But I think that we can take that and then augment it with some of the tools that have developed over the last few years that both planners and also just attendees have become incredibly comfortable with. So I guess that would be my big prediction is we're going to see a continuation of different platforms and in particular, not as an either or, but as a both and. And how an onstage presentation followed up by some really powerful virtual or digital tools can really help propel things for it.

Josh Linkner:

Right on. Well, thanks for your, again, contribution today. Here's to your continued success and Farah's and speaker spotlights. Here's to the success of our industry, and here's to our next Mic Drop moment together.

Martin Perelmuter:

Thanks, Josh. I really enjoyed it. I look forward to seeing you again, hopefully soon.

Josh Linkner:

Martin is someone we can all learn from and also someone you'll want to grab a beer with. Warm, direct, thoughtful. It really brings me joy spending time with someone who is so wildly successful while maintaining their grace and humility. Here are a few key takeaways that really stood out from today's conversation.

Number one, while Canadians and Americans have many similarities, it's crucial for speakers to deeply understand the cultural nuances and market dynamics as we do business in each other's countries.

Number two, once again, we learn that being easy to work with can be a strong competitive advantage in the speaking business. And number three, the industry has changed a lot in recent years, and the rate of change will only continue to accelerate as new technology shifts and client demands continue to expand. The speakers who stay relevant, reinvent often, and adapt to changing conditions are the ones who will enjoy staying power. With his signature Canadian Politeness, Martin will undoubtedly continue to play a key leadership role in our industry and our industry will undoubtedly continue to evolve. Thanks, Martin, for the inspiring and informative chat. Wishing you and all of our Mic Drop listeners continued momentum and success.

Thanks so much for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share it with your friends and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit mike drop podcast.com. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Thanks so much for listening, and here's to your next Mike Drop moment.