In this episode of Mic Drop, we converse with Shawn Kanungo, a trailblazer in the realm of professional speaking, known for his creative approach to innovation and disruption. Shawn outlines his journey from a successful career at Deloitte to becoming a dynamic keynote speaker influencing global audiences. He emphasizes the significance of leveraging digital platforms to enhance his reach and impact, detailing his pioneering venture into producing streaming content for platforms like Apple TV and Prime. This discussion not only highlights Shawn's forward-thinking strategies but also his belief in the transformative power of speaking to shape careers and businesses.
Shawn Kanungo is a strategist and keynote speaker who operates at the intersection of creativity, business, and technology. Having spent over a decade at Deloitte before venturing into the world of public speaking, Shawn has become a recognized leader in innovation and disruption. He is known for his high-energy presentations and a bold approach that challenges traditional boundaries in the field of professional speaking.
Innovation in Speaking: Shawn discusses how professional speakers can be likened to modern-day rock stars, with the potential to significantly impact lives and businesses through engaging and innovative presentations.
The Role of Digital Content: Exploring his unique strategy, Shawn emphasizes the importance of recording keynotes and sharing them on social media as a method to test and refine content. He also touches on his groundbreaking work in creating a streaming special, which sets a new standard for speakers worldwide.
Impact Over Income: Reflecting on his personal motivations, Shawn shares inspiring stories from audience members whose lives were changed by his talks. He passionately argues that the true value of speaking lies in the impact made on individuals' professional paths and personal growth.
Advice for Aspiring Speakers: Shawn offers practical advice for up-and-coming speakers, encouraging them to focus on the impact of their work and to embrace modern digital tools to enhance their visibility and influence.
Learn more about Shawn Kanungo:
Learn more about Josh Linkner:
ABOUT MIC DROP:
Hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter its starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.
Learn more at: MicDropPodcast.com
ABOUT THE HOST:
Josh Linkner — a New York Times bestselling author — is a rare blend of business, art, and science.
On the business front, he’s been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which created over 10,000 jobs and sold for a combined value of over $200 million. He’s the co-founder and Managing Partner of Muditā (moo-DEE-tah) Venture Partners - an early-stage venture capital firm investing in groundbreaking technologies. Over the last 30 years, he’s helped over 100 startups launch and scale, creating over $1 billion in investor returns. He’s twice been named the EY Entrepreneur of The Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.
While proud of his business success, his roots are in the dangerous world of jazz music. Josh has been playing guitar in smoky jazz clubs for 40 years, studied at the prestigious Berklee College of Music, and has performed over 1000 concerts around the world. His experiences in both business and music led him to become one of the world’s foremost experts on innovation. Josh
is the co-founder and Chairman of Platypus Labs, a global research, training, and consulting firm. Today, he’s on a mission to help leaders Find A Way™ through creative problem-solving, inventive thinking, and ingenuity.
Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.com
SPONSORED BY AMPLIFY PUBLISHING GROUP:
Partnering with CXOs, keynote speakers, change makers, and other visionary leaders, Amplify Publishing Group (APG) is a leader in the hybrid publishing space with more than twenty years of experience acquiring, producing, marketing, and distributing books.
Passionate about ideas and voices that need to be heard, they're known for launching books that start engaging and timely conversations. At each turn, they have been at the forefront of innovation and have spearheaded a critical disruption of the publishing industry.
Learn more at: amplifypublishinggroup.com
ABOUT IMPACTELEVEN:
From refining your keynote speaking skills to writing marketing copy, from connecting you with bureaus to boosting your fees, to developing high-quality websites, producing head-turning demo reels, Impact Eleven (formerly 3 Ring Circus) offers a comprehensive and powerful set of services to help speakers land more gigs at higher fees.
Learn more at: impacteleven.com
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In Detroit, history was made when Barry Gordy opened Motown Records back in 1960. More than just discovering great talent, Gordy built a systematic approach to launching superstars. His rigorous processes, technology, and development methods were the secret sauce behind legendary acts such as The Supremes, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross and Michael Jackson.
As a nod to the past, Detroit Podcast Studios leverages modern versions of Motown’s processes to launch today’s most compelling podcasts. What Motown was to musical artists, Detroit Podcast Studios is to podcast artists today. With over 75 combined years of experience in content development, audio production, music scoring, storytelling, and digital marketing, Detroit Podcast Studios provides full-service development, training, and production capabilities to take podcasts from messy ideas to finely tuned hits.
Here’s to making (podcast) history together.
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Shawn Kanungo:
I really believe that we can be the modern-day rock star today. The impact that we can make change people's lives. It can change people's business, their careers.
Josh Linkner:
Hey, friends. Josh Linkner here. Delighted to bring you season three of Mic Drop, the number one podcast for professional speakers and thought leaders. On the show, we connect with experts at the top of the field unpacking their success to help each of us grow and thrive. From elevating your artistry to booking more gigs, Mic Drop is designed to give you the tools and insights you need to reach the next level. Together we'll accelerate the path to growth, success, and most importantly, impact.
ImpactEleven:
The best keynotes start movements and insight change. When you couple an electrifying speech with a project that fuels audience engagement, the result is lightning in a bottle. What I'm talking about here is a book. That's where our friends at Amplify Publishing Group come in. With 20 plus years of experience and helmed by some of the industry's most renowned veterans, including bestselling author and global superstar, Mel Robbins, the team at Amplify knows not only how to produce a fantastic book, but how to leverage that book and make it work for you, your brand and your business.
Amplify not only knows books, they know the world of keynote speaking and thought leadership. Having published CEOs and executives, they take positioning into consideration at every step of the way. Whether you have a one-line concept or a comprehensive outline, Amplify is ready to work with you. Visit Amplifypublishing.com/micdrop to schedule an exploratory call and receive an exclusive editorial one-pager tailored to your concept. That's Amplifypublishing.com/micdrop.
Josh Linkner:
In this inspiring episode of Mic Drop, we sit down with my friend Shawn Kanungo, a disruptor in the professional speaking industry. Shawn shares his process from a decade-long career at Deloitte to becoming one of the world's most sought-after keynote speakers and thought leaders on innovation and disruption. With a unique approach that blends authenticity, cutting-edge content, and a relentless focus on impact, Shawn is redefining what it means to be a speaker in the digital age.
In today's episode, Shawn discusses the importance of recording and sharing content from every keynote using social media as a testing ground for new ideas and the significance of being in the impact business rather than just the speaking business. He also explores his innovative venture of producing a special on streaming platforms like Apple TV and Prime, setting a new standard for thought leaders around the world.
On a personal note, I admire a lot of keynote speakers, but Shawn is right at the top of the list. His innovative approach, his modern focus, and his tech-forward ideas really propel us to a whole new level. I know you're going to love today's episode of Mic Drop.
All right, Shawn, welcome to Mic Drop.
Shawn Kanungo:
Josh, I am super excited to be on Mic Drop. I'm not going to lie to you. I've listened to every single episode, so to be on here is incredible. I just want to give some love to you. Rate, review, subscribe to this podcast wherever you are listening to this because Josh is putting in the work. I'm just excited to be on season three. We made it. It's here.
Josh Linkner:
Well, thank you so much, brother. I have such deep respect for your work and the incredible impact you're making in the community of professional speaking. I'm delighted that you chose to join me.
Diving in, people often complain it's really difficult to break into the professional speaking industry. There's these barriers. It's hard to cut through. You're the antidote to that myth, in my mind. You raced on the stage and catapulted to one of the highest levels of success at a relatively young age. I'd love you to give us a little bit of the backstory. How did you launch your speaking practice, maybe take us through those early stages and to the point where you are today.
Shawn Kanungo:
Yeah, to be honest with you, well, I've been just trying to follow into the Josh Linkner footsteps. Actually, just look, I just love when you're killing it because I'm in the innovation space as well, so anytime an organizer hires you, they're like, "Oh, man. Josh killed it. In this innovation space, we need somebody else." I know every gig that you get now, I'm going to be getting a couple years later, so keep doing your thing.
But my journey when it comes to speaking is odd because I didn't even know that this was an industry. I didn't even know that people got paid to speak. I worked at Deloitte for over a decade in their innovation group working with corporate organizations when it comes to strategy and innovation. That's where I cut my teeth. Then clients want to hear about the work that we were doing around digital transformation and AI and new technology.
I would go up and talk about all the projects and somebody would say, "Well, we have a workshop. We have a conference that we would love for you to speak." It just snowballed from there. I remember back in 2017, I probably did 100 keynotes and I got probably paid for half of them. At that point I'm like, you know what? I think I just did all the conferences. I don't think that there's any more conferences. Little did I know that there's just millions of conferences happening every single day. This is why I believe this is an unstoppable business because there's so much opportunity. The pie is so large. I think that's what you talk about ton within this business, that there's just so much opportunity. That's how I got into it.
Josh Linkner:
Well, you're exactly right. There really is an abundance. I'm sure you've got some fun war stories. One time I did an event, it was two separate clients in the same, not just the same state, not just the same city, the same venue on the same morning. I did a keynote, took a coffee shot, went down the hall, did another one. There's plenty of opportunity for us all. Still, it's not as easy for everybody to get that traction. You're like, "Oh, in 2017 I did 100 keynotes," as if that was an easy thing to get. Would you maybe just share a little bit? I mean, you were at Deloitte. You then obviously transitioned to the professional world of speaking. How did you get those first early couple gigs?
Shawn Kanungo:
The way that I got the first early couple gigs was I would, like many people, I didn't know how big this could get. I didn't know how lucrative it could get, but I knew that I was good. I knew I was building brand eminence. I knew that I was building brand equity. I knew that getting on stage that it could benefit Deloitte, that we could get clients, we could get work. The more that people would hear about our work when it comes to digital, that we would benefit as an organization. My viewpoint was like, I need to get on as many stages as I can to talk about this incredible work that we were doing. I would hunt and look up conferences or events and reach out to the organizers, go on their websites, reach out, send them my website and some of the work that we were doing. It was really guerrilla in the first bit.
I think really what gave me the fuel was through video. I would record almost every single presentation that I would do. Then I would put it on Facebook and LinkedIn and other places, YouTube. Then I actually literally still do the same playbook today that I did way back in 2017, which is create content on stage and record it and then put it out in the world. I believe that that is the fuel that is the playbook to this day. Yet, I mean we could talk in depth about this, but I give 100% of speakers this same playbook, and yet 99% of them do not follow it. I'm not sure why, but to me it's undeniable, and yeah, we can get into why.
Josh Linkner:
Well, I'm excited to learn more about it, of course. I have that same experience with people. It's one thing to share what you have to do. It's another thing to actually do the work. In any career, not just public speaking, people often will, they can hear what needs to be done, but doing the work and making the sacrifices, those are two different things. Maybe just give us a sense, Shawn, of where your business is today in terms of volume, scale. Just trying to get a sense of, we know where you were in 2017, what does it look like today in 2024?
Shawn Kanungo:
I fundamentally believe that I'm in the impact business. What does that mean? It's funny because you're part of this amazing community around ImpactEleven. I really believe that I'm in the impact business. I'm not in the keynote business. To me, impact is mainly through content. Whether it's keynotes, I probably do about 80 keynotes a year. We'll probably do 100 this year, and book. We dropped a special on Prime and Apple TV last year. I'm also doing a ton of brand deals. That's another I think white space as keynote speakers that we can enter into just through content, like being a B2B creator or a B2B influencer. I think there's a massive opportunity for that. I've been breaking into that.
Then I did a whole bunch of consulting before, but now I've been really focused on advising the organizations that I've been with that I have equity stakes in. Those are most calls and plop in here and there. But for the most part, that is the business. It's really centered around this idea of impact. How can I scale my message, my ideas to the widest group possible? We've been starting with this podcast. If you're watching this on video somehow, we have the beautiful podcast studio that we're building out, we continue to build out, so impact business.
Josh Linkner:
I love that distinction. You're exactly right. A keynote is one mechanism of delivery, but it's not that you're a keynote speaker. You're an impact, you're a thought leader. I love that distinction because you can monetize that, and you can reach people in lots of different ways both on and off the stage.
It actually gets me to a question I wanted to ask you. Think about the industry of professional speaking, thought leadership, and it's changed quite a bit. If the old phenotype of a speaker was Zig Ziglar, a three-piece suit, big pocket square, exaggerated performance, inauthentic, that model's gone. Then maybe the next generation speaker may be how I grew up a little bit, maybe were the last 10 or 15 years. But then now, and I'm still active and of course, but I view you as that the next generation, the more modern phenotype. When you think about that modern keynote speaker, the modern impact leader phenotype, what do you think that looks like, and how would you distinguish it perhaps from maybe where I grew up over the last 15 years or so?
Shawn Kanungo:
Well, no, I appreciate it. I mean, you're still as relevant and as modern as ever before. You got to give yourself some props there. It's funny because I haven't really thought about that. Mostly because I never really, I appreciate this business and I appreciate pioneers like yourself really making a dent in this business so people like me could enter in and play with it in different ways.
My belief is this, is that what we do as keynote speakers, as presenters, is I really believe that we can be the modern-day rock star today. Back in the day, the philosophers, they were the rock stars. They used to fill out the arenas and the stadiums because people wanted to hear their ideas. Then over time, I don't know what's happened, the keynote speakers, we've become like the circus clowns. I mean, I don't want to disrespect it, but were the opening keynote, and we're the closing keynote, and we're like the entertainment, we're the inspiration` when I believe that we can elevate this field.
I think it's so important. The impact that we can make change people's lives. It can change people's business, their careers. I believe that we can make so much more impact and just elevate what we are doing. That's why the special that we dropped last year on Apple TV and Prime, that was just the way to say, "Hey, what could this look like in terms of elevating our presence in the world?" The idea is coming back to say, "We need to hear more interesting, more radical ideas that will change people's lives or careers or businesses." I want to be the epitome of being somebody that's modern and that's relevant.
As it pertains to the content, I just feel like we should be more relevant and present. The world is changing so quickly. I just believe we're speaking on the topic of disruption and innovation, you should be cutting edge. You should be talking about something that happened yesterday because the way that we used to look at the world, I mean, it's always changing. We should be on the cutting edge. We should be relevant. We should be incorporating things that just happened yesterday. That's what I try to do is try...
Shawn Kanungo:
... Separating things that just happened yesterday. So that's what I try to do, is try to be as relevant as possible.
And then from an entertainment standpoint, I believe that we can't just come in with our bad PowerPoints and these three bullet lines on the screen. We have to make it beautiful. And awe-inspiring, and compelling. And just with the impact of generative AI, there's no excuse not to have beautiful imagery and aesthetics. Every time we go to a keynote that has these huge, these massive screens, these massive horizontal LED screens, like, we work on those things for weeks in order to make those things beautiful and so that it really makes an impact and people feel like they're at a rock concert.
Like I said, I want to elevate what we are doing. And maybe that's my contribution to really try to make this just elevated.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:14:04]
Josh Linkner:
I love that, man. You're absolutely speaking to my heart there.
Some people do this for money or applause or whatever. I think you and I do this, as you point out, for impact and to make a real market and help other people live better lives, build better businesses, make the world a better place. And the fact that you are taking this approach... And I'll just call out a couple of things.
First of all, that we are looking at the overall aesthetic of a performance, the way Taylor Swift would, the way that any performer... someone in performing arts would, is exactly right, because you have to capture people's hearts and minds. If they're enjoying the content, they're going to be more perceptive, it's going to land better. And the truth is, it's a different medium. If they just want to learn only your ideas, they'll buy your book. But they want to hear it in a different way. And I think that you're really rising to that challenge and pushing both the technical and creative boundaries.
I also love that you're approaching it with such an authentic perspective. The old world is like, "Hey, I'm Zig Ziglar. I'm bulletproof. I've never made a mistake. Let me tell you how I crush my competitors." And that's totally dead. And we hear from you your deep enthusiasm and passion, but you also hear it in a way that's deeply authentic and real. And I think you stuck a beautiful balance in that regard.
Shawn Kanungo:
And I think on your last podcast that I was listening to, both of them mentioned the power of authenticity. And to me, I am trying to connect with the audience. I'm not trying to tell them that I climbed Mount Everest or I built a massive billion-dollar business, which I haven't. I'm trying to connect with them on a deeper personal level. So I'll bring in stories about my kids or my wife.
Actually, at the beginning of my keynote, what I try to do is I try to showcase my vulnerability. I try to showcase where I screwed up or I messed up or where I got things wrong so that people know that I'm not trying to prove something to you. I'm here to just serve. I'm not better you, I'm on your level and I'm hoping that these ideas will provoke you in some sort of way. I think that ability to connect is so important today, and I try to do that. Literally in the first opening story or the first five minutes, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to show people that I'm not here to give you some advice or answers. I'm here to just ask some really deep, provocative questions so that, later on when you're at the bar, that you can have these conversations.
Josh Linkner:
It's so good. And that's what people want, is an authentic conversation, not to be preached at.
I have a question for you. You think about storytelling and modality, and it can come from different perspectives. Some people who are newer to the speaking world think that like, "Hey, is everyone going to care that much about my story? Is my background or my experiences good enough to be heard on stage?" And I always advise people, like, some of the best speakers, Adam Grant, Dan Pink, the late Sir Ken Robinson, never told a story about themselves ever. They actually told other people's stories. Malcolm Gladwell, et cetera.
And so I think about different modalities. So one modality is you're the protagonist. You're telling a story about your kids, your family, or your business. Another one is you're like the co-star where maybe I'm telling a story about where I participated, but I wasn't the only person that was the featured character in the story. Another one might be a witness. Like, I could tell a story that I'm on the board of directors of a company, and so I still have a personal connection to it, but I'm telling somebody else's story, not my own, although I still have a little personal connection. And then the final one is I'm a researcher. Like, if I told you a story about some really cool company in Malaysia that I've never talked to, I am not connected to, it still might be a great story, great example, even though I have no personal connection.
So as you think about those different modalities, how do you sort of frame your own keynotes? Is it mostly ones about you where you're the protagonist? Mostly ones you're the researcher? A mix of all of the above? How do you think about that?
Shawn Kanungo:
Yeah, you broke it down so well. And I actually have to go through my keynotes to figure out what that pie looks like. I would say that it's definitely all of the above. It's a variation. Sometimes I'm the witness, sometimes I'm the protagonist. And normally when I'm the protagonist, I'm not trying to show somebody that I did something that was successful. It's more like I screwed up and I didn't know how to figure something out, or I got something wrong. That's usually what I'm doing from a protagonist standpoint. And certainly being a researcher, as well.
So I've definitely tried all of the above. And I always find that the ones that are personal, that's what people connect to the most. But I think having a mix is great. I mean, it definitely works for me. But I haven't really thought about it in that way. I'm assuming you do the same, as well. It's funny because I've seen a lot of you, but I haven't actually seen you in person yet. And that's my goal. That's my bucket list. I've put it on my list to-do. But how do you break it down? I'm just curious.
Josh Linkner:
Well, likewise. I'm excited to see you in person, too. I've seen some great videos of course, and nobody is better.
I do a mix. It's funny, I felt such an aversion to being boastful. To me, it's just a core philosophy about humility and grace. And I realize always that a keynote is in service of the audience, it's not about you. It's not about you, the speaker. A great keynote is about the audience, not "Look what I can do." It's a "Look what you can do." And so for the longest time, I would almost never tell a personal story because I was just reluctant, I didn't want to seem boastful or whatever. And I got some great coaching from speakers like you that I trust. They're like, "Hey, man. You got to open up a little bit. People want to hear... Don't make the whole thing about you obviously, but you're missing that personal connection."
So I'm now doing more of that. And like you, I'm trying to showcase my stumbles, not my successes, to show some vulnerability. But now probably quite a bit more. So maybe before in a 60-minute keynote, I might spend three minutes about me. Now maybe it's nine minutes. So it's a step in the right direction. But I think more often than not, I tell stories where I'm somehow connected to it, where it's a board I'm on, or somebody that I know or that I met, or it's from my hometown or whatever, or it's just an amazing example that I've discovered in my research and I've built a piece of content out about it, having no personal connection to that story.
But I'm shifting and it's still a moving thing. I don't know that mine is the right approach. But I was just curious how you looked at it. I think probably the best approach, now that I really think about it, is a mix because the sort of multi-modality is really stimulating to audiences. You're never sort of coming from the same perspective all the time, and it keeps things fresh and interesting.
Shawn Kanungo:
Yeah. So on that note, on keeping things fresh and interesting, I want to know how much do you change the keynotes? Obviously, I know you customize a ton and that's why people love your content. How much are you building new stories and bringing in new insights to the table? I feel like on the topic of innovation, it's almost a necessity. But yeah, I'd love to get your take on it.
Josh Linkner:
Yeah, and yours too. I mean, it's a great question.
My feeling is that I try to think about a keynote like I'll have a structure, so I'll have a sort of a thoughtful opening and ending, not content, but just a desired outcome. And then sort of structuring it in the middle with sharing some meat on the bone. And so some of those structural elements I might keep consistent, but that's a structure, not a piece of content. I think of content more like a Lego block. And so if I'm speaking to healthcare professionals that are CEOs of hospitals, I better not share the identical stories that if I'm speaking to advanced manufacturing people in Southeast Asia. So I got to think about who the audience is, and then I assemble pieces of content accordingly.
There are definitely some... a content library that I built over the years that I might choose a particular Lego block. Like, "Oh, this story would really make sense to reinforce a core point I'm trying to make." So it's not that I've never reused a story. Of course not. I've got some kind of signature stories, and I'm sure you do too. But I've done 1300 keynotes, I don't think I've ever done the exact same keynote twice because always sort of building those Lego blocks. So that's on stuff that's already in my library.
But then what I try to do is I always try to do something new. I'll do fresh research, I'll learn something new, I'll find a story from yesterday's New York Times that is relevant. And I kind of think about it the way that comedians do where you test out material. So let's say I'm speaking to an association of dental engineers or whatever, I might find a really cool innovation in the dental engineering world, and I'll sort of test it out. And if that audience is, like, "Cricket, cricket," I'm like, "Yep, never going to use that again." But if they're like, "Whoa," and there's big laughs and you could feel their energy, then I might say, "Oh, could I shape this more for a general audience?"
So for me, and my hunch is the same for you, I'd like to hear, is as I'm always testing new things, and if there's positive reaction or if it feels right, then I'll kind of build and further develop it. And if not, I'll dump it and move on.
What about you, my friend?
Shawn Kanungo:
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I get a lot of pride when somebody... This happened a couple of weeks ago where somebody was like, "Hey, I listened to you. I was at a presentation that you did last year. And I thought it was going to be the same, but it was completely different. And it got me thinking in fundamentally different ways." And I love that. I love the ability to come up with new material and new content.
And what I do, which is, I don't know... It sounds really dumb, but what I do is, anytime I'm testing something new or something that I'm not sure if I've got all the beats yet to it, I will just actually take that piece of content and I'll put it up online. So actually, most of the content that I put up online is actually the first time that I've ever said it.
And so what it gives me, it gives me an opportunity to see how it does, obviously in person, but sometimes you don't totally know if it resonates in person because it may not be something that's totally funny or super insightful where people are nodding their heads. Sometimes you don't even know, right? But if you put it up online, then you get comments and then you can see how it resonates with folks.
So sometimes what I'll do is I'll take a new piece of content, like a new three minutes, and I'll put it up online to see if it resonates. And if it does, I'm like, "Okay, I definitely got to keep this in." Or if it doesn't, it gives me some pause to say, "Hey, maybe we need to rework the story. Maybe we need to add some more beats." And the beautiful thing is that when you do put something online, people might add their own perspective. They might add some interesting tidbits or maybe pieces that resonated with them. So it's a great way to A-B, test different stories and then bring them in.
I mean, there's been stories that I've had over maybe a year, like a bit that I've been trying to work on, and maybe it doesn't resonate, but I put it up online and then people comment on it. So it's a really interesting way of, I guess, A-B testing your content. And yeah, I guess... Because I just know that somebody that's in the audience, they're not looking for... If I go to a conference, I hope one day they do, they're excited to say, "Hey, Shawn Kanungo is coming. We're really excited to see him." But to be honest with you, Josh, 99.5% of the people that are going to be there, they're not there for me, okay? They're there for the connection, they're there for their particular event, they're there to see their friends, their community, their folks. They're not there for me. They're not looking me up online. And so for the most part, they're hearing me for the first time.
And so what does that mean? That means that I can try new material, I can try old material that's sort of reworked. It's not like a stand-up comedian where somebody might go to... If I'm seeing Trevor Noah, I've heard his bits before, I've heard his previous stuff, I'm expecting something new. And so it's just a different... I think we just have a little bit more freedom than the stand-ups, as you mentioned. And yeah, it's just an interesting way of approaching things.
Josh Linkner:
It's a great point. And I love the fact that you're using social as a testing laboratory to get feedback and refine pieces of content.
ImpactEleven:
Becoming a keynote speaker is an amazing profession. The top performers earn millions while driving massive impact for audiences around the world. But the quest to speaking glory can be a slow rot with many obstacles that can knock even the best speakers out of the game.
If you're serious about growing your speaking business, the seasoned pros at ImpactEleven can help, from crafting your ideal positioning to optimizing your marketing effectiveness, to perfecting your expertise and stage skills. As the only speaker training and development community run by current high-level speakers at the top of the field, they'll boost your probability of success and help you get there faster. That's why nearly every major speaker bureau endorses and actively participates in ImpactEleven. The ImpactEleven community provides you unparalleled access to the people, relationships, coaching, and accountability-
ImpactEleven:
... success to the people, relationships, coaching and accountability that compresses your time to success. To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect, that's impactE-L-E-V-E-N.com/connect.
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:28:04]
Josh Linkner:
I'd love to shift gears a little bit because you do some really unique things. Again, first of all, I love that you think of yourself as in the impact business, not the speaking business, that you're creating content, not just giving keynotes. Awesome. When I was talking to you, our last conversation, I was blown away, man. You're like, "Hey, I did whatever, 90 keynotes last year, and I hired a film crew and filmed 84 of the 90," or something, it was like a big number. Can you talk about that a little bit? How are you using social? How are you deploying content off the stage from the stage? What's your team look like? Maybe just give us that overall strategy that you mentioned earlier that works but very few people are willing to actually embrace.
Shawn Kanungo:
Yeah, I think having a couple of editors in-house certainly helps, but to me, I believe ... This is the same playbook that I've been playing since 2017, which is record all the content, even if it's on a stage that you may not post in a reel. I think that speakers, God bless speakers and the reel, everybody gets really romantic about the reel. I believe that the world is shifting. I don't believe that it's just about a reel. If you're paying for something that's 30, $40,000, that's the price of a car. So if you're buying a price of the car, they're not just going to go off the one video, they're going to look at everything. They're going to look at the reviews. They're going to look at the ratings. They're going to look at all the cuts of it. So we live in a world now where a planner is not dumb. They're going to look at every single piece of asset. I believe that as speakers, our job is to actually de-risk it for the planners.
The best way of de-risking it is not thinking about the reel, but actually it's thinking about a library, a library of content that somebody can go to and be like, "Actually this is my person." So what I do is actually any city that I'm in, I'm in San Diego, I'm in Nashville, I look up Nashville videographer, and then I message 10 people the same exact message. "Hey, my name is Sean Kanungo. I'm a keynote speaker. I'd love for you to record my presentation. I need two, three cameras and a lav mic. Here's the details of the keynote, where, when, the time. I need you to come an hour before," and I say, "Let me know what your hourly rate is." So I message 10 people, four people get back to me and said, "Hey, that works out." Usually, they could be wedding videographers, they could be other content creator videographers.
They say, "Yes, I can do it," and the range could go from anywhere from $80 to $1000. You can make assessment on who works best, but usually the average range for a videographer in a particular city for a two, three camera setup might be let's say, $700 or maybe $500 for a two-camera setup, and so that's the price. They come out, I get the footage, transfer it to my laptop. I upload it or I bring it back home, and our editors will cook on it, and then we try to put something right away. In fact, my default is, if I'm the opening speaker, I would love for something to come out right away. If I'm talking about something that's relevant that if I can use their hashtag, I can post it on LinkedIn or Twitter and then people could point to that and be like, "Hey, I was at this conference and this guy, he said something really compelling," and that's my default.
It doesn't always happen, but I want to be able to post something right away. God bless these clients. I do not trust any client to take the footage of the keynote. 99% of the time, it's one guy at the back. It's one camera, it's a broadcast camera, and I don't trust it. What I do trust is people that have DSLRs and two, three cameras, you can make anything look good. A lot of speakers are like, "Well, I'm out on these big stages." You could almost make any stage look good. What you are doing ultimately, if you're posting this up on different platforms with TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, you're building a library at the end of the day. It's not about the reel, it's about the library, and that piece of content might resonate. It might get you another keynote.
Let's say you're getting paid 10K a keynote, that $500 for that piece of content that you put out from that keynote, that might get you another keynote. So guess what? Your fee might keep increasing, but the cost of the video never changes. It always stays the same. So why wouldn't you make that trade off and have that attempt for that piece of content, which you put that in the world, that might get you another keynote? So I'm just going to make that trade-off every single day and try to build a library so that people can point back to you and be like, "Hey, that resonated with me, this video." Then I see this today, Josh, like an organizer, I'll go on the pre-event call. It's like, "Hey, I watched a couple of videos. I love this piece. I love that piece. I would love this piece. Can you incorporate this into my speech?" I'm like, "Great. Thank you for doing your research." Most organizers are going to do their research. That's what I'd say to that.
Josh Linkner:
It's so brilliant, man. Again, slightly, we're both still in it. I'm a little bit older than you, but you know one the thing that's funny to me is the thing that I was always obsessed with is the bureau agent. I get in the car before I text my wife Tia like I'm texting the bureau agent, "Hey, it was a great keynote," 'cause I'm thinking the same thing. I'm going to invest in those relationships that'll lead to the next keynote. I'm sure you're deeply respectful of bureau agents too, of course, but you're saying the same thing but now terms of content. It's such an interesting shift and I think it's so important and relevant today. The other thing, for multiple reasons, one is, you're exactly right. It's a library, not a reel. Second of all, the thing I've noticed is that the buyer profile is changing. It's funny, I'll see if this resonates with you. I used to call the old buyer Marge.
So Marge has been head of the Association of Pencil Manufacturers for 37 years, and she's booked every speaker and she just barely does email, and that's Marge. Well, here's the thing. Marge is retiring and now Marge is being replaced by Ashley who's 28, and she's a digital native, and her whole life is on social media. So Marge would never consider, "Oh, I better look at their library on social media. I'm just going to do what the bureau agent says." Ashley's not doing that. Ashley is saying, "I'm going to go look at the library." She looks at Sean versus Josh. She's like, "Sean has 1000 times more content than Josh. He seems much cooler and hip. I'm going to hire Sean." Yes, and so I think it's the right approach that you're doing it. I really appreciate you sharing that model with us. You mentioned that 98% of people don't do it and you lay it out very clearly. Why is that? Do you think they're afraid of the cost? Do you think it's too much work? Why don't people embrace it? Seems awesome.
Shawn Kanungo:
Well, by the way, you don't have to do it. There are people that are very successful in the game, and they don't do it. I look at somebody like one of my Mount Rushmores of speaking, which is Alison Levine. I love Alison Levine. I've seen her keynote. She's a monster. I don't think she takes any video. I don't even think she has a reel, but she's a monster in the game. She will continue to be the monster because her keynote is so referable and she's so good on stage, she doesn't need video. She's like post-video. For some people, it just works. I just believe there's a couple of things. Number one, it is cost. People don't see the ROI. They're like, "I don't see the ROI on taking this video. It's not going to be impactful. I don't see it," and I think the cost of it, it is a lot of money. I'm not going to lie to you, when I started speaking, I didn't make any money speaking.
When I was doing those first keynotes, those first 100, I didn't get paid for those. Yet, I still bought a videographer out, even though I didn't have the money to do it, because I knew that this content could go somewhere. Again, I think because you can't see the ROI on that one, that's why people don't do it, and that's number one. Number two is the logistics of it. They're like, "Okay, I need somebody to edit this. I need to get the footage. Come on..." Today, there are kids walking around, there's TikTokers walking around everywhere, they know how to edit. Editing has become a base-level skill like Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel. You can find somebody that can edit. Go on Upwork and just say, "Hey, I got footage," there's going to be 1000 people that will charge $10 an hour to edit. I feel like editing has become not a super specialized skill, but it's something that's way more commoditized.
Yet, I think people just, they don't want to do that. I think the third thing also is that maybe it's the thing that we're all afraid of is we're afraid of what people are going to think. We're afraid of what people are going to say about our content. "Maybe it's not going to be good enough. Maybe it's not going to be perfect." I think that's the thing. Then the other thing is that we don't want to burn content. We don't want to burn our best bits and put it out there, which is what stand-up comedians, they used to hate. They don't want to burn their content, and so I think if you don't want to burn content, then take the Q&A. I think the Q&A is a great bit. You're not going to burn any content. It's going to show you on stage. It's going to show your wit, your spontaneity. Yeah, you may not kill that question, but it's about building the reps. I'm continuously trying get good at not only delivering content on stage, but also through the Q&A, and you can only do that by just putting in the reps.
I just think the Q&A is actually... it actually creates amazing social content because people are waiting... They know that it's spontaneous. They know that it's know that it's not canned in a way, so that's the reason why crowd work clips and comedy are blowing up. That's why all the comedians do it because they're not burning content, and it's actually interesting for social. We always give this as advice to speakers, "Just put out a piece of content. Get your phone out, and just get on a camera and do it." I think that's bad advice. I think as speakers, we have this incredible platform. We're on a stage in front of people. It's incredible authority already. So just record that and put out a clip, and you'll see that you will get a ton of impact out of that. It's maybe not today, but over time, somebody might look at this in five years and be like, "Hey, I saw you on stage on this random video that has three views, and I loved it. Can I book you?"
Josh Linkner:
You're exactly right. You were planting seeds for the future. I've gotten booked, even recently, some CEO of a big company was like, "I read that piece that you wrote in Fast Company Magazine in 2013." I'm like, "Really? What?" But you're right, that content lives on. Just one real quick tactical question, then we'll move on to something a little bit more profound, but how do you request permission from your client? Do clients object to you like, "Hey, what do you mean you're bringing in three photographers and videos? This is my audience." How do you navigate permission from the client?
Shawn Kanungo:
Incredible question because, so number one, I put it in my writer. So I have a writer. The only thing I have in my writer are two things: Number one, I would love to bring a videographer. Number two, if your slides are different, if they're not just a 16 x 9, tell me what that it is and tell me before so I can work with your AV crew to make sure that it maximizes the real estate. So I put it in the writer. In the pre-event call, I always mention it. I said, "Hey, by the way, I know it was the writer. You may have missed it, but I usually bring a videographer with me. They're usually in the background. They have a couple of cameras. They're not going to get in the way of anybody. Is it okay if I bring them?"
Sometimes they'll be like, "No," which is fine. I'm not going to push back. Then sometimes they'll be like, "Well, we don't want our audience in the video," which is fine as well. So I always bring it up in the pre-event call. I would say 80% of the time they're like, "Yeah, yeah, no problem. We'd love to put it up." I actually offer to give the footage to them to say, "Hey, yeah, you can have the footage, by the way." I just request them, "Just don't post the full thing. But you can have it." Obviously, I'm in the business of impact, so I'm okay with my footage being out there because that's why I'm in this business for other people to take this message and go off with it.
That's why I give my presentation. I give my slides to everyone because that's the point. We're in the point of changing people's businesses and lives. So I'm okay with the videos. I just don't want the full thing going out because I think the full keynote going out, maybe the bureaus will get a little bit antsy about that, but I'm okay with it. So that's how I usually navigate it. It doesn't always happen that I can bring a videographer, but I would say 80% of the time you can bring it. Then sometimes I also bring somebody from my team. If I know it's a big keynote, I'll fly some people down to shoot the keynote because if I want it in a way that I really want, so that's another thing.
Josh Linkner:
That's so smart. By the way, I totally agree. I've never understood why keynote speakers protect their reel. If your heart's in the right place, you want to share your message with the world, they're going to share it? Awesome. By the way, Taylor Swift put out her entire concert on film, and I don't think anyone's not going to see Taylor Swift anymore. So I think if anything, it benefits you and the impact that you're trying to create, So I totally agree. Hey, switching gears, you were... Oh, go ahead.
Shawn Kanungo:
I was just going to say I probably have more content on me on a stage than almost any other speaker on the planet.
Shawn Kanungo:
... on me on a stage than almost any other speaker on the planet. And it has not prevented any organizer to be like, "Hey, actually I could watch all his stuff on YouTube and I'm not going to hire him." Absolutely not. That's never going to happen. And actually, by the way, it actually forces you to come up with new content. It forces you to be relevant. It forces you to develop new stories and bits so that you can continuously feed social media and YouTube and wherever else to create more content. So actually there's no downside to it.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:42:04]
Josh Linkner:
Totally agree. "I saw you on YouTube, so therefore I'm not going to hire you as a keynote speaker." Said no one ever and nor will they.
Shawn Kanungo:
Exactly.
Josh Linkner:
But speaking of seeing people on TV, so you are the first innovation expert to have a streaming special. You created this thing on Apple TV and Prime. Can you unpack that for us a little bit? What was it? How did you get this opportunity? What has it meant to your speaking practice? Are there any lessons for those of us listening today?
Shawn Kanungo:
Yeah. So it was also on my bucket list that I wanted a special on a streaming platform. And I think maybe part of the inspiration was Brené Brown. She has an Amazon special and a Netflix special. And there are not too many... I think she's the only thought leader or management thinker that has a special on these particular platforms. And if you think about how the special really transformed the comedian's career back in the day, I don't think it does make an impact anymore. But you could have relative unknowns at the time, somebody like Ali Wong, putting out a special and just selling out theaters later. And I thought it was an amazing way of getting a global audience to see something that was well produced. So it was always in my bucket list.
But not a single person is tapping me on the shoulder to record a special. Netflix is not tapping on my shoulder to put out a special, Amazon Prime, no one is. And so I knew that the only way of doing this was to shoot it myself, to self-produce it, to get my own crew, to get my own theater, to shoot it with seven cameras and to do it in a way that no one has done before. And that we create the final deliverable and then we pitch it. Now, the good thing is that before I actually had done the special, I'd built some relationships with some production companies and some distribution companies to say, "Hey, if I would do this, what would it take?" There was a great company called Comedy Dynamics, they're in the world of standup comedy. And I built a relationship with them two years before and say, "Hey, if we would do this, what would it take?"
And they gave me all these different ideas of what I would do. And then I went away for a couple of years. And then when I was done and I had a final product and I had the trailer already ready, I sent it back to them and be like, "Hey, by the way, we shot it." And they saw the trailer, they're like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." And then they worked with their partners at Apple TV and Prime and other places to put it up. But it was a huge endeavor. You had to get a theater, you had to market it, you had to get people to it, you'd have to get a crew, you'd have to build the content. So all these things had to come into place in order to make the actual day happen.
And by the way, I had the asset for a year, I didn't even know if it was going to sell. So I could've spent a lot of money, almost six figures on this thing, and maybe it would've gone in the trash. Maybe no one would've ever saw it. But finally somebody said yes, and then we put it up. So it was my first foray into this space and I would love to do it again. And I would love to see other people do it again that are in this management thinker space like we are. I just believe that ideas can transform the world. And if they can see it on a platform like Netflix or Amazon or whatnot, that just elevates what we do as thinkers. Why is just the standup comedians are the rock stars? Why are they getting the specials? Our ideas are important as well and I feel like we can get a different platform by leveraging these streaming platforms.
And I feel like a book is great and having a book is awesome and I think it's the best way of distilling down ideas, super important. But a special is something, it's just like the new way of looking at things. Maybe it's the 2020 ways of looking at things. It's not a book, but it's something that's digital. It's something that's global that can reach everyone. And it's also scarce. We also know that a lot of people can't get a special, it's not like anybody can walk in and drop something on Apple TV. So yeah, it was an experiment and I would love to do it again. And find other ways of putting out this content and continue to experiment with different ways of putting out these ideas in the world.
Josh Linkner:
Love it. And super creative. I'm so happy for you and your success in that. Man, we could talk all day. We're running out of time a little bit. But I just had two fun questions to end this really inspiring conversation. The first one, as you mentioned earlier, your Speaker Mount Rushmore. Alison's on mine too. She's a dear friend. I just adore her as a human, not only a thought leader and a performer. Who else is on your Speaker Mount Rushmore?
Shawn Kanungo:
Wow. Yeah, you know what, I didn't even think about that. Alison Levine. I would put you on there just because as somebody that is in the innovation space and doing it at the highest level. So Josh, Alison, Ron Tite. He's in Canada. Super funny, super smart, insightful. And then I'd probably put Simon Sinek. Simon Sinek is incredible ideas, incredible speaker, speaks with authority. I had the chance to be interviewing him once. Amazing speaker. So there it is, Josh. That's my Mount Rushmore. We're going to carve it in. We're going to go to South Dakota and we're going to carve it in.
Josh Linkner:
Well, we've got to keep just a spot up there for you, my friend. You're just doing such provocative and important work.
Shawn Kanungo:
I'll taking a picture in the back.
Josh Linkner:
Last question I had for you is, you mentioned you're in the impact business, and I just love that phrase. Maybe share one of the more touching comments that you've heard from an audience member or a client after a keynote. Not like, "Hey dude, you hit it out of the park." But has someone said something to you that really gave you a pause? You're just like, "Wow, that really hit me in the heart." And to validate and know that you are in fact in the impact business and that you are really making the impact that you're seeking.
Shawn Kanungo:
So if you're listening to this, I'm just going on my phone right now and what I normally do is I take a picture of somebody's message that they send me and it's a message to say, "Hey, I started something new." To me, it's not about, "The presentation was great." Or, "The book was great. I got a lot of ideas out of it. It was provocative. It was the best thing I've ever saw." That's great. By the way, please send me those messages still. But what I love is when somebody's like, "Hey, I took a leap. I did something new." And this just happened on Friday. Somebody said, "Hey, Shawn, just want to reach out and say thank you. I took the leap and I officially started my own business last month and I couldn't be happier. So I wanted to say thank you for reigniting my spark and awakening in me the confidence to forge ahead and do it. I sincerely hope..."
Anyways, he took a leap and he started his own business last month. Forget the views, forget the likes, forget the shares, forget all the amazing satisfaction surveys after the keynotes. Forget all of that. I want to do this for the rest of my life. I want to see those messages again and again and again and again. People actually taking action. They're doing something with it. They're changing their lives. To me, this is why we are in this business. This is why I believe that we can elevate this profession because people are doing something with their lives. They're changing their careers and their businesses and their lives. I just want to do this for the rest of my life and it's incredible. So those messages like that, literally I have a whole folder where I just save messages like that. And I'm sure you have that as well. It's incredible. What kind of business are we in where we could do this?
On the last note, I just believe as keynote speakers, we have this great platform. We have this ability to transform people's lives. If we do it 80 times, that means, let's say 1,000 people watch us in a conference that's 80,000 people. Plus, if you get actually a video of that, if you tape it 80 times, a million people could see that. And we could just play that playbook all day long. And out of those 80 million people, maybe there's one person that changes their lives. That's incredible. So let's just keep doing this and continue to make an impact in people's lives.
Josh Linkner:
What a beautiful place to end our conversation, man. Your book is called The Bold Ones and how do you Innovate and Disrupt to Become Truly Indispensable. And that's exactly what you've done, my friend. You're a pioneer in our industry and you're continuing to make an impact. For me, certainly, I know the listeners today, and of course, millions of people around the world. Congrats to your success. Thank you for joining me today on Mic Drop. And may you continue to be the bold one and continue to make the impact that you have so far. You've got a long runway ahead of you and I know you're going to continue to make a giant dent in the world. Thank you, my friend.
Shawn Kanungo:
Well, thank you so much. It's an honor to be on this pod. Rate, subscribe, review, whatever you've got to do. I love the community that you're building, Josh. And everyone that has ever met you says how generous and grateful you are. So I'm just honored to be on this pod and can't wait to see you in the future.
Josh Linkner:
I have a hunch that you enjoyed today's episode of Mic Drop as much as I did. While Shawn is a little bit younger than I am, he's also a deep source of inspiration for me. I love his modern approach. I love how he's using content and social and film in such a provocative way. From one innovative person to another, I really respect his creativity, his willingness to take risks and his willingness to run experiments. Try what's working, double down on it and disregard the things that are not. Shawn was very kind to say that I may be on his Mount Rushmore, but he is absolutely on mine. Shawn's book is called The Bold Ones, and he demonstrated today what a bold one really is. He's pushing the boundaries across what's possible and his inspiring story, his launch into the career of speaking and rocket ship to the top of the field, it really gives us a model to follow. And I think it's most importantly a new model to follow in an industry that is desperate for change. Thanks, Shawn, for your leadership and inspiration. And thanks to you for listening to Mic Drop.
Thanks so much for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share it with your friends and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit micdroppodcast.com. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Thanks so much for listening, and here's to your next Mic Drop moment.