Mic Drop

Stories that Stick (ft. Kindra Hall)

Episode Summary

In today's conversation with storytelling expert Kindra Hall, we cover the four must have elements of any good story, the metrics Kindra uses to gauge a successful keynote performance, the things that can make her cringe when listening to other keynote speakers, and Kindra’s storytelling heroes— as well as how she seeks new inspiration to continue to refine her craft.

Episode Notes

Stories that Stick (ft. Kindra Hall)

A master storyteller on what works, what matters, and what doesn’t work or matter

OPENING QUOTE:

“We get to know people through their stories, and they're asking themselves in that moment as you come out on stage: "I'm spending the next hour with this person, do I like them? Do I connect with them? Do I feel like they're related to me in any way? Do I trust them?”

-Kindra Hall:

GUEST BIO:

Links:

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[6:00] - The Four Key Elements of a Great Story

Kindra’s secret sauce for amazing storytelling

Kindra lists four key components of great storytelling— First, they need an identifiable character. It can be you or someone else, but it needs to be someone your audience can identify with.

Next, a story needs authentic emotion. It doesn’t have to make your audience cry, but it needs to make them feel something.

Third— a story needs a moment. It’s a point in the story where the listener can “come in and sit right there next to you,” experiencing what you or the main character experienced.

Finally, a story needs specific details. This adds to the image your audience is creating in their minds, making your story more vivid and impactful.

[14:48] - Intros & Ending

How Kindra thinks about two of the most important parts of a keynote

When it comes to intros, Kindra has a strong stance: “Always start with the story.” That’s how your audience will get to know you, much more than listing out your credentials or resume.

As far as endings, Kindra ties all the concepts she’s gone on to discuss back to that original story. It brings everything full-circle, and helps solidify the concepts discussed because they tie back to her original narrative. This leaves a lasting impression and ties emotion and feelings to the intellectual side of what’s been discussed.

[22:36] - Kindra’s Storytelling Heroes

Influential names you may not know

Kindra lists her mentor, Donald Davis, as one of her storytelling heroes. She cites his traditional storytelling chops and ability to make life’s everyday moments have power and value as one of her biggest inspirations. Kindra also lists the opening story of Glennon Doyle’s book Untamed, despite its status as being considered “overhyped.” It clearly struck a chord with a wide range of people— the hallmark of a great story.

[29:16] - Kindra’s Storytelling No-Nos

Taking a stand against emotional manipulation

Two things Kindra feels strongly about in stories and keynotes— don’t cry, and don’t tell stories that have no purpose other than to make your audience cry. Becoming emotional onstage might feel like it will convey vulnerability and impact, but the truth is that it takes the focus off your audience and puts it on you. You’re meant to be the deliverer of the message, not the central star of the message.

Meanwhile, Kendra says that while stories should be emotionally resonant, they also need to tie back to your message on an intellectual level. Ask yourself what the purpose of a story you share actually is— if it doesn’t go any deeper than “making the audience cry,” cut it out.

[32:52] - More than an Ovation

Kindra’s real measure of a great keynote

Many speakers measure success in standing ovations. But Kindra uses another metric. Does anyone come up to her after the keynote and ask to discuss its message with her further? Does anyone speak to her about speaking at another event? These are signs that she’s made a lasting impression after leaving the stage and concluding the event. That’s the true measure of keynote success.

RESOURCES:

[23:02] About Donald Davis
[24:02] Untamed, by Glennon Doyle
[24:40] New York Times Metropolitan Diary

Follow Kindra Hall:

Follow Josh Linkner:

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Hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it’s starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.

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ABOUT THE HOST:

Josh Linkner is a Creative Troublemaker. He believes passionately that all human beings have incredible creative capacity, and he’s on a mission to unlock inventive thinking and creative problem solving to help leaders, individuals, and communities soar.

Josh has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million and is the author of four books including the New York Times Bestsellers, Disciplined Dreaming and The Road to Reinvention. He has invested in and/or mentored over 100 startups and is the Founding Partner of Detroit Venture Partners.

Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.

Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza.

Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.com

Episode Transcription

Kindra Hall:

We get to know people through their stories and they're asking themselves in that moment as you come out on stage, "I'm spending the next hour with this person, do I like them? Do I connect with them? Do I feel like they're related to me in any way? Do I trust them?"

Josh Linkner:

Welcome to Mic Drop, the podcast for professional speakers. We cover the ins and outs of the business, helping you deliver more impact on bigger stages at higher feeds. You'll gain an inside edge through intimate conversations with the world's most successful keynote speakers. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Get ready for some inspiring Mic Drop moments together. Today's show is sponsored by ImpactEleven, formerly known as 3 Ring Circus, the best and most diverse and inclusive community built for training and developing professional speakers. They're not just elevating an industry we know and love, they work with hundreds of speakers to launch and scale their speaking businesses, earning tens of millions of speaking fees, landing bureau representation, securing book deals and rising to the top of the field. To learn more and schedule a free intro call, visit impacteleven.com. That's impact-E-L-E-V-E-N.com. As keynote speakers, we love to tell stories and today's guest is a Jedi master at storytelling.

Kindra Hall is the best selling author of Stories That Stick: How Storytelling Can Captivate Customers, Influence Audiences, and Transform Your Business. Kindra is one of the busiest keynote speakers on the scene, helping global brands better communicate the value of their company, their products and their individuality through strategic storytelling. She's also the Chief Storytelling Officer at SUCCESS Magazine, where she shares the inspiring, often untold stories of achievers like Daymond John, Deepak Chopra, James Altucher and Misty Copeland in print and on the podcast SUCCESS Stories with Kindra Hall. In today's conversation with Kindra, we cover the four must have elements of any good story, the metrics she uses to gauge a successful keynote performance, and it's not a standing ovation, as a storytelling expert, the two things that can make her cringe when listening to other keynote speakers, Kindra's storytelling heroes and how she seeks new inspiration to continue to refine her craft and specific approaches to keynote intros and endings. As professional storytellers, I know you're going to love today's can't miss episode. Kindra, welcome to Mic Drop.

Kindra Hall:

Thank you so much for having me, Josh. I've been looking forward to this ever since I heard from you. So thrilled to be here.

Josh Linkner:

Awesome, thank you. I wanted to jump right in. I mean obviously, you and I share a love affair with storytelling and I was wondering if you could share with us how did you fall in love with this craft?

Kindra Hall:

This is a story that goes way back. So I'm the kind of person, which you may be too, I'm sure many people who are listening are, where my career found me. So I told my first story when I was 11, it was an assignment for fifth grade, and we were supposed to grab a children's book and then go read it to a third grade classroom. And instead, I don't know, I read the book and thought that I could add things to it. And so I ended up telling the story instead of just reading the book and that was in fifth grade. And my teacher told my mother, said, "Hey, we did this lesson. I think Kindra really has something here." And so I started telling stories at church, at bible school. I started telling stories for friends' birthday parties. And then I was on the speech team in high school, was telling stories there competitively.

And then a coach from another school actually gave me a flyer for a national storytelling competition which I entered and won. And the grand prize was to be able to go tell at the National Storytelling Festival in Jonesboro, Tennessee. So at that point, it was my freshman year of college when I told at the festival and there were all these... I mean it's a whole festival all about storytelling. And I got connected with some other people who storytelling is what they do now. It isn't storytelling in business, it isn't keynote speaking, they sit on stages and just tell stories whether they're personal stories or folk tales or stories from their heritage. And so storytelling has been in my life since I was a child and throughout the years, it's taken many different forms. I've researched it and of course now, I teach it. But it's always been there.

Josh Linkner:

It's so cool and I just encourage... I mean I do this to this day, you have done a lot of keynotes over the years, about 1,200 actually, but I watch Moth Storytelling all the time. I mean I love stories and it doesn't have to be you point out a business story, just the mere art, it's an art form. And good artists are good students. Speaking of being a student, the first time we met, I think I told you I was a little starstruck because your book, Stories That Stick, it was one of my all time favorite books. I think it's one of the top, if not the best books ever written on storytelling. Would you mind sharing a couple principles from the book that could help me and other keynote speakers improve on their craft?

Kindra Hall:

Yeah. I mean being a storyteller myself and then a student and then a teacher of stories, I have a lot of opinions about stories. A few key things, number one, where stories often go wrong is we glaze over it. We think we're telling a story, but we're more talking about something or we stay really high level talking just about a concept. So maybe it's a leadership or maybe it's innovation or it's creativity, but we don't bring it all the way down to a moment in our lives, in someone else's life where people can really see the story. And so that's the first thing I see in speakers especially. They just talk around it or about it but don't take the time to really tell the story. And another one of the principles that's in there that's relevant for this audience, for everyone who's joining us here, are the key components that a story needs to have. It was the research that our team did, what makes a story more memorable, more influential, more emotional, or where it has that ability to keep people's attention? And that a story needs to have an identifiable character.

Now, if you're telling personal stories, the character can be you, but giving your audience an opportunity to really identify and identify with that character and ultimately, hopefully in some way, connect to see a little bit of themselves in that character. A story needs to have authentic emotion. And this is particularly a point that I want to make here is that does not mean that you have to make your audience cry in order for it to be a good story or a worthy story of this stage. I often find that just really simple, relatable, everyday stories are almost more impactful because it gives the audience more of an opportunity to, as I mentioned earlier, see themselves in that story. So the emotion only has to be authentic, it doesn't have to be dramatic. A story needs to have a moment. And what I mean by that is a point in that story where the listener can come in and sit right there next to you. They're sitting in the room or at the meeting or in the line or wherever the story is happening that they can be there with you and really see it.

And then finally, a story needs specific details. And that just drives what I call the co-creative process further. So at each detail you mention, their brain is adding that to the image that they're creating in their minds. And you can have a lot of fun with specific details, bringing them back at the end of a story if you mentioned it at the beginning, but they didn't think they noticed, but they did, there's a lot there. So those would be the two of the big takeaways. Of course, there are so many more. But in Stories That Stick in particular is what a story really is so you're not just talking around it, and then the four key components that a story needs to have.

Josh Linkner:

So good. And forgive me, forget, I'm going to bounce in and out of being technical because I'm a storytelling geek and I feel like I'm talking to Yoda of stories so I can't help myself. How do you know when it's too much richness, color and detail versus not enough? And so on the one end, we want, like you said, put somebody in the story. "I walked into the room and couldn't believe my eyes, my stomach was in a knot. The purple wallpaper was shimmering in the light." So richness, color and details, we're putting people there, we're dropping them in. But at what point does it become distracting from the through line of the story versus... So when are you doing too much, when are you doing too little?

Kindra Hall:

Yeah. So again, anytime you're using a story on a stage, you're doing it with intention. It's a strategy, right? It's a strategy to illustrate your point, to connect more with your audience. And so as a strategy, you need to be strategic with what you include. And so I would say we can go overboard. And you're not trying to fill up a page, you have a goal with where you want your listener to go with you on this story, right, as they're on the journey of this story. And so only enough richness to accomplish that goal. You're not trying to show them how visual you can be with everything. I would say one or two details, just the small things that they can paint the picture. And in fact, I haven't articulated it in this way, but think of it in this way, how much do you have to say for yourself to be transported back to that space in time, to that room?

Do you need the color of the wallpaper to go and sit on your grandmother's couch? You know what I mean? Now, if there's something about the wallpaper and you're like, "Oh, my grandmother, and she loved cats, there were cats on the wallpaper, there were cats on the napkins, there were cats crawling all over my lap," then yeah, mention the wallpaper. But if you're just talking about a conversation with your grandmother that happened on the couch, you maybe don't need to include the color of the wallpaper. So as many details as you would need to go back to that place, but much more than that, then it just sounds like you're showing off and you do not want to show off in your story.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, totally agree with you. In your book, Kindra, you said something that was one of those mind-blowing moments, for me anyway, and I've repeated it with attribution by the way always. Your wisdom-

Kindra Hall:

I'm nervous, I'm like, "Oh, no, what did I say? What if I-"

Josh Linkner:

Many, many times. And you talk about this concept of think, know, do, feel and that was just so profound. Can you walk us through what is think, know, do, feel?

Kindra Hall:

Yeah. One of the most important things you can do to accomplish that goal of being strategic with your stories is remember that you are there to tell the story for them, not for yourself, right? And so to get in that place, and this helps with that editing, it helps with deciding what to keep, what to let go of, here's the question, what do you want your audience to think, feel, know, or do as a result of hearing this story? And let that be your lighthouse, your guide. And so if you're debating of "What do I keep, what do I leave," come back to that question. Okay, what do I want them to think, feel, know, or do? Does this help me? Does keeping this part help me accomplish that goal? And if it doesn't, leave it out.

Now, if it helps them picture the story more clearly, it adds a little bit of color and it's not a distraction, then you can keep it. But this becomes an advanced technique with practice. If you start to notice that people aren't taking the action that you want them to take or they're not walking away... If the comments after your talk seem off, they're not exactly the reactions that you thought they would be, that is a signal to you then that there must be a nuance that's off in the story that isn't completely aligned with what you want them to think, feel, know, or do. In the book, I share the example of a fundraising story and this woman told this amazing story of her experience volunteering with this kid and the incredible impact he had on her and she in turn was able to have on him.

And she would tell this story to try to raise funds for this organization. But afterwards, she didn't get donations, she got people wanting to volunteer. And she was like, "I don't understand what's happening." Well what did she want them to do? She wanted them to donate. So she needed to shift the story just a little bit to get that action versus... And of course, getting volunteers is a wonderful thing, but that's not what she was there to do. So she had to change the story slightly. She could use the same story, but had to build a little bit around it to get it to the action which is, "This is what your money can do. So give me your money."

Josh Linkner:

So good. And again, I've with attribution recommended to the people before you write your first word of a keynote, come up with your first PowerPoint image or whatever, write out one sentence, "Think, know, do, feel," stick it on the monitor next to you and use that as your north star to inform every content choice that you make to keep things on track and make sure that there's going to be a consistent and singular focus that really drives through the keynote. So again, it's such brilliant advice. I wanted to ask you, do you have a favorite keynote opening or keynote closing approach? We often talk about in music, for example, I play music as you know and in music, the intros and endings are the most important parts of every song. In films, of course, intros and endings in a fireworks show, the intro and the finale of course. And so if the same is true obviously for a keynote, not that there's only one right answer, of course not, but what are some of the ways that you think about intros and endings?

Kindra Hall:

Well this is going to come as a huge surprise, but I think you should always start with the story. You should always open your keynote with a story. Now, I will say that personally when I'm delivering my keynotes, I don't come on stage and the first word out of my mouth is, "I'll never forget the day I told my first story," and go right into the story about the story. I prefer to have a little bit just for myself personally as a speaker, to have just a moment where it's just a few sentences of fluff or throwaway. Now, they're very intentional, I say pretty much the same thing every time. I'm not walking onto a stage and the lights go up or my microphone's on and I'm like, "Hey, what's going on? How are you guys doing? How's everybody feeling?"

It is I come out, I refer to the introduction that the person has just given me and I say a quick thing that set, I usually start by saying, "I just want to say yes, I am Kindra Hall and my title is Professional Storyteller. I just want to put this out there, I know as a title that sounds made up, and it is." Because in that moment, I'm getting my mouth around the words. I'm getting a little feel for who this audience is or what they're about. I also know I've been doing this for a long time that they're sitting there listening to me, but they have their ideas about storytelling being a worthy topic on a stage. And I will say from now between when I started and today, it's a much more acceptable topic, I like to think I had a little bit of something to do with that. But starting right there. So I start with a little bridge, we'll call it a bridge. And then however, I go straight into a story.

And the reason to start with a story, so you heard when I said that it is made up, I told my first story and I go right into the story. You'll notice that I don't say, "Today, we're going to be talking about this, this and this," I do go right into the story before giving an overview because we get to know people through their stories and they're asking themselves in that moment as you come out on stage, "I'm spending the next hour with this person, do I like them? Do I connect with them? Do I feel like they're related to me in any way? Do I trust them?" And a story right from the get go, before you go into the outline or any stats or figures that, "40% of people say they want to hear a story," whatever it may be, they're getting to know me and I'm showing them through a story who I am and why they should listen to me.

So it's a really important way to start. And then after that story, I transition into, "So here's what we're going to be talking about here today," which I've already set up through the story that I've told. So that's what I would recommend.

Josh Linkner:

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From interactive boot camps to one-on-one coaching, if you're looking to take your speaking career to the next level, they'll help you make a bigger impact faster. For a free 30-minute consultation, visit impacteleven.com/micdrop. It's so smart. Just to quickly pause, I mean just think the intentionality of it is so good. You're not coming out and clearing your throat with like, "Hey, Bob, thanks for having me here at Myrtle Beach. Wasn't the lunch buffet terrific?" You're coming out there with this line about you're a storyteller and yes, that's made up, it makes you relatable, it's self-deprecating, it's also mysterious and now, I want to learn more. And I instantly like you. So I think in such an efficient number of words, you've set up the intention that you want going forward. And again, I think it's terrific. So anyway, I want to shift gears to the ending.

Kindra Hall:

Yeah.

Josh Linkner:

How do you think about endings?

Kindra Hall:

The ending then, if you've started with a story, I think the strongest way to end is by tying back to that story. Now, there's a couple of different ways of doing that. I mean you ended the story in the beginning. You told the whole story, or at least as much as they needed to know for the opening. But maybe there's an epilogue, maybe there's a part of the story that you did leave off. Come back to that story at the end, it gives you this full circle experience. What I actually do in my keynote is I don't tell a full rest of a story at the end because the way my keynote often wraps up is right before the end, I've told an emotional story, the most emotional of my stories. And so I don't want to tell that story and then tell another story within 30 seconds, okay?

So I instead use a phrase, and this is where I say you can have some fun with the specific details that you mention, because I say, "Here's what we've covered," which I think is another important... I outline what we're... Wasn't it Letterman or somebody said you tell them what you're going to tell them, you tell them and then you tell them what you told. So I wrap up by doing an overview, "Here are the things that we've talked about." And then I come back and I use one of the details from my opening story that I say, I talk about a roller coaster and I'm like, "Okay, so the next time the stakes are highest and you feel the pressure coming over you like the heavy bars of a roller coaster," and they chuckle because they're like, "Well anyway, she talked about that an hour ago." So it's a callback and then I can wrap it up really quickly, but I'm still wrapping it up with the story in mind.

Josh Linkner:

It's just so good. And so this is what happens when you're a professional, you make it look easy, but there's a lot of, again, thoughtfulness and intentionality in every decision. You study speakers and storytellers, as do I, who are some of your favorite storytellers? Doesn't have to be keynote speakers, by the way. I mean throughout history, do you have any specific two or three storytelling heroes?

Kindra Hall:

Yeah.

Josh Linkner:

And I'm curious who they are and perhaps why they're your heroes.

Kindra Hall:

So my storytelling hero, hands down the one, my mentor, is Donald Davis, a little known storyteller to the population as a whole. But when it comes to the National Storytelling Festival or that community of storytellers that are very traditional, he is a superstar. He's the Taylor Swift or Justin Bieber or whoever, I mean Taylor Swift. His ability to take life's everyday moments and see the value in them, because ultimately, that's my essence. That's what I believe I'm here to do is share those everyday moments that we often overlook. But when you tell them as a story, you can see how much of who we are exists in these really small stories. So Donald Davis. And then you know what actually? I read the first chapter maybe, I know this sounds so terrible, but of Untamed by Glennon Doyle. And it was so good. It was a story about a cheetah and the way she wrote that story.

And honestly, because there'd been so much hype about whatever and I didn't know really what the book was about, I was expecting to hate it. But I read that story and I was like, "That's all I need to read." That was very, very well done. My other favorite place to look for stories is actually in the New York Times. I think it's in the Sunday paper, but I think I get it on Saturday, the Metropolitan section. They have all these teeny tiny paragraph long stories of little things that happen. And again, they're stories that seem to have no point, but when you read them, you are reconnected to humans and what it is to be a human and the silly mistakes we make and the interactions that happen. So I look forward to reading that. That's why before I got here, I moved my papers out of the shot, even though we're not using video, but it's really stacks of all the papers that I haven't gotten to read the stories on the Metropolitan section yet. It's my reward at the end of a long week or something, I get to read those stories.

Josh Linkner:

One observation that I have is as you talk about your storytelling heroes and stories in general, you just light up with joy. And that's, again, really a mark of someone who's deep into their craft. When I was studying music, how do you get to be good musician? Part of the way is you study other musicians and you love music. And they always say the best writers are the best readers. And similarly, if we want to be good storytellers, why wouldn't we want to immerse ourselves and derive beauty and joy from the art form of great storytelling? And so I encourage people listening to go to YouTube and check out Donald Davis, read The New York Times Storytelling that comes out on Sundays/Saturdays. Check out The Moth Storytelling Hour. The good news is there's so many stories online now that we have access to YouTube and others. If you type in, "Storytelling competition," you could spend the next 30 years watching stories.

Kindra Hall:

Yeah.

Josh Linkner:

And so I just encourage people like you've done, Kindra, to really immerse themselves in the art form. And speaking of that, when you watch other speakers, I shouldn't just say speakers, storytellers. So for me, I've been playing Jazz guitar for 40 plus years and when I watch someone playing Jazz guitar, I'm hyper aware. I wouldn't say hyper critical, but hyper aware, so I notice everything. I notice when they do some beautiful unexpected chord substitution and I'm like, "Ooh, I got you, that was cool." And I also notice when they make a mistake or when they do something that is less cool. When you watch other storytellers, what are the things that light you up and what are the things that make you cringe?

Kindra Hall:

Oh, that's a good question. So I love when you can tell that somebody has put the time in and done the reps on the story. So they have the think, feel, know, do down, right? And they've taken the time to... Because I think there's this belief that a story's only good if you do it off the cuff. And if the story is really for the person you're telling it too, why wouldn't you invest in it and work with it and work on the movements of it and the details that can come in and the details that go out? So that's one of the things. And you can see it, right? You can hear it when someone's telling you a story. You hear a story or you read a story that you can tell they've gone through the editing process of it and that they've kept things in there that you didn't realize when you were reading it or listening to it meant something, and then they're able to come back to it and make it matter more.

So that's what makes me really excited. And that's something that I would encourage anyone, especially as speakers, anyone who's presenting, don't wing your stories. They are the most important thing you can offer on stage, give them the time. Even I, if I'm like, "Ooh, I should tell this..." I told a story at an event the other day, a thing had happened to my son three days before getting on the stage for this keynote. We're talking about it, I have an exercise in there where I have him talk about a bicycle accident, he had had a bicycle accident three days before, never told this story. I'm on the stage and I was like, "Oh." And so I started to tell and I mean it was fine at this point in the presentation and over the course of my career, I've earned the right to share an off the cuff story. But it was not good, right? It didn't enhance the keynote. It wasn't bad, they didn't boo me off the stage.

But even as someone who has been telling stories her entire life, this is what I do, first time on the stage telling it, it wasn't good. And so that's one of the things that gets me really excited. Something that I really cringe about is two things, but they're connected, and I don't want people to be mad at me for saying this, but I'm going to say it, when presenters cry or get really emotional while telling their own story. In my opinion, and I'll tell you why, this is a huge mistake. Remember, you are there to share your story on behalf for the benefit of your audience. And I know that there are speakers out there that them crying on stage is one of their things that they do. And I don't know, Josh, I don't know if you do that so I'm sorry if you do. But okay.

Josh Linkner:

I do not.

Kindra Hall:

But that's something they take great pride in is that they get really emotional, even a tear coming down their cheek every time they tell their story. And they use it as a badge of, "I'm so present, I'm so in it." But no. You're so in yourself in that moment and when you get over emotional or really emotional on stage, what happens in the audience's mind is, "Are they going to be okay?" They start to worry about you or think about you and that's not what they should be doing in that moment. They should be in the story as it relates to their own experience with it, their own emotions with it.

So yeah, it's good if they cry, but if you're crying, it's an interruption in that sacred space where you want them to be sitting. And so that's one of the things. And then on that same level, I've seen it happen where someone tells a story just because it's an emotional story and it doesn't actually serve a purpose, right? It doesn't illustrate a point. There isn't think, feel, know, or do, there's just this is an emotional story and I know that if I tell it, they'll get emotional and then it'll be good. So those are two of my cringing moments.

Josh Linkner:

I love that you shared that and to me just, reflecting on it, first thing is don't do something like it's a party trick.

Kindra Hall:

Yes.

Josh Linkner:

You're there on behalf of your audience, not yourself. It's not, "Look at me," it's, "Look what I just did, look what you can do." And so if every word isn't in service of helping and elevating others and if it turns on yourself for selfish purposes, that's a big red flag. So I totally agree with you. And even things like, "All right, at the end of my speech, everybody stand up," and then yay, I've got a standing ovation, I mean party tricks.

Kindra Hall:

I hate that.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah.

Kindra Hall:

I'm like I'm not going to say it out loud, but oh, look, we're ending, everyone's standing up and then you're like, "Thank you very much," and then it's another standing ovation, God, it drives me crazy.

Josh Linkner:

Right. And by the way, the goal of a great keynote I don't think is a standing ovation. If you get one, that's nice, but the goal is to drive... Again, it's an act of service in generosity, not one of arrogance or being self-serving. So I'm really glad that you said that.

Kindra Hall:

And I think especially if you're someone who's just starting out, it's a really easy form of measurement that you did a good job on stage. But there are some audiences that simply aren't going to stand up, that's just not who they are. And there are some audiences, I had a friend, we have a mutual friend who said to me, "Kindra, what is it? How do you get a standing ovation while you're walking onto the stage? You haven't even said anything yet." And he's seeing the videos of people standing up to cheer before even... And that's just the nature of that audience. They just want to stand up and cheer for people walking when they're walking out, which is a beautiful thing.

A better measurement, and this gets into the business of speaking whether or not we want to go there, certainly you're there to serve and to always be in that place. And when you walk off stage to be like, "Okay, I served them." But if you want another fundamental tangible measure, did anyone who was sitting in that room follow up with you afterwards and ask you to come speak at one of their events? That's how you're doing something right.

Josh Linkner:

That's exactly right. A spin piece of business is a much more accurate and tangible measure of your speaking success than whether or not you got a standing ovation or if you had a punchline that was always going to work. I mean again, those to me are more party tricks than meaningful impacts. So I'm really glad that you said that. As we wind down our conversation, Kindra, and I'm so grateful for our time together and your wisdom, on the surface, it seems like you do it all. You have a beautiful family. I've had the great privilege to meet your husband and I know you're crazy about your kids, you're obviously fit and you're in great health. You're speaking all over, you're writing, you just came out with your newest book. How do you navigate the balance? I'm terrible at it to be honest and you seem to be very good at it. Any insights or tips that you could give to our audience who are like you and me trying to balance a number of competing interests?

Kindra Hall:

I think that what I've learned and I think one of my great strengths is that I am always touching base with how I feel right now. How do I feel? How does this feel to meet? Does this feel okay? Does this not feel okay? Now, the challenge is the way that this business works is a lot of times our calendars are set six months in advance. And so you get a huge month where there's 10 events or whatever and you're locked in and you're moving on event five and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this." So there's a delay in actually being able to make changes. You have to experience it. But one of the things, this is an important question actually, we could talk about this for a half hour, is I've learned that I really have to be thinking about what is right for me, number one, and my family is an extension of that, but me right now. So what is right for me right now?

And right for me is to know everybody else, right? Because your speaking business looks a lot different than my speaking business, right? The number of events that you do in a year and you consider successful is very different than the number of events I do in a year and feel successful. And just like with anything, but I find that half of the battle of this work is focusing on yourself when there's so many people to look up, to compare yourself to and it can get really confusing. And so if you're not constantly checking back in with does this feel good to me? And asking yourself that all the time and giving yourself real honest answers that, again, are your own, not what you think you should say, not because you have friends that are saying, "You travel too much, your kids miss you," or whatever it is.

And then the right now, So right for me right now, I've learned that things changed for me, right? So when my kids were little, it was okay, it was right for me to be gone all the time. They needed me in a different way than they did last year, than they did the year before. I'm starting to feel as we move into 2023 that they need me in a different way and I might be able to do a few more events a month or a year, right? Because right now, they're running around to all their activities anyway, as long as I spend really good check-in time with them. But again, I am having these conversations in my own head, with my husband, I'm checking in with my kids, not giving them too much power, but seeing how they feel about what the life looks like, I'm checking in with my team constantly.

Josh Linkner:

It's a terrific prompt, how do you feel right now? And maybe we'll end things there. And I'll just share how I feel right now. I feel energized from your passion for storytelling and your professionalism and the depth and the amazing learnings that you shared today and I feel grateful. I feel grateful for your leadership at our industry and your continued impact that you're making on us all. So once again, Kindra Hall, thank you for joining me on Mic Drop.

Kindra Hall:

Thank you, Josh. Loved being here.

Josh Linkner:

Besides being a storytelling badass, I just love how the art and science of storytelling fills Kindra with unbridled joy. A couple other observations from today's conversation. Number one, Kindra studies storytelling the way Garry Kasparov studies chess. Her endless curiosity and commitment to her craft shines through both onstage and inner speaking business. Number two, authenticity is a key ingredient in Kindra's success. She doesn't come off as preachy or arrogant, quite the opposite. You really feel like you know her and she's willing to share personal elements, which in turn makes audiences fall in love. And number three, Kindra's think, know, do, feel model for reverse engineering the desired outcome of a keynote before writing a single word, it's simply brilliant. I've been using that approach since I learned it from her and I can say without hesitation, one of the most powerful tools I've come across to craft better keynotes.

Kindra mentioned that to keep people's attention, a story needs to have an identifiable character. Today, she filled that role for us all inspiring us to become better at providing something for all of us to aspire to. Since the beginning of time, stories have been used to teach, inspire, entertain and move people to action. The platform is a sacred honor. The ability to change hearts and minds and ultimately change the world. Kindra Hall has honed her craft and that was helping all of us become better storytellers, thought leaders and change makers. Thanks for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share with your friends and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit micdroppodcast.com. And a big thanks to our sponsor ImpactEleven. I'm your host Josh Linkner. Thanks for listening and here's to your mic drop moment.