Mic Drop

The Best Story Wins (ft. John Livesay and David Burkus)

Episode Summary

It’s a Mic Drop double-whammy as welcome John Livesay and David Burkus, two powerhouse speakers who love breaking the rules. In our far-reaching conversation we cover a number of topics ,including why the worst time to start something new may actually be the best time, how storytelling is the one true universal language, and why everyone is a chief culture officer, even in a team of one. Ready to pick some fights? Listen now.

Episode Notes

The Best Story Wins (ft. John Livesay and David Burkus)

John Livesay and David Burkus on telling stories and picking fights

OPENING QUOTE:

”Whoever tells the best story is the one that's going to win that pitch, not who has the best price or who has more bells and features.”

-John Livesay

GUEST BIO:

John Livesay, also known as The Pitch Whisperer, is the speaking industry's sage of storytelling and the go-to expert for helping brands tell compelling stories to their own audiences. He's done exactly that for the likes of Coca-Cola, Olympus, Berkshire Hathaway, and many more big name clients, offering a roadmap for turning great products into narratives that customers just can't ignore.

Links:

David Burkus is one of the leading minds in the business world, and one of its most provocative. He literally wrote the book on managing remote teams before COVID hit. Since then, he's been instrumental in helping organizations everywhere adapt to the seismic shifts brought on by remote work, especially when it comes to how leaders interact with their team members and their customers.

Links:

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[3:40] - Why a Bad Time is the Best Time

Turning opposition into opportunity

David shares how he entered the professional speaking game at the height of the pandemic — probably the only speaker to make that somewhat insane choice. But David doesn’t see it that way. He turned a powerful new need, managing remote workers and teams in the COVID era, into an opportunity to provide unique value. He’s never looked back, and there’s something to be learned from his accomplishment. Sometimes the worst time is the best time.

[5:40] - The Universal Language

The brain thinks in stories, which is why storytellers excel

From Olympus to Coca-Cola, John Livesay delivers the same undeniable message: the best story wins. Audiences think in terms of narrative — it’s how the brain is wired. That’s why the best speakers, leaders, marketers, whatever you like; they’re the ones who know how to tell a story. What story are you telling?

[9:07] - You Are Your Own Chief Culture Officer

Managing people is everything, even if you’re only managing yourself

Every leader at every level of an organization is the chief culture officer of their own team, whether it’s a team of two or 200. Even a sole proprietor has a company culture — it’s what they will do, won’t do, and the things they insist on in their work and general approach. It’s how they function, how much they’re willing to work, all the little details that make up their “organization” of one. Teaching every leader at every level how to take responsibility for the people in their team is the key to unlocking real impact that lasts.

[11:25] - Want to Inspire Action? Pick a Fight

Stop talking metrics and put on the boxing gloves

“People don’t want to join a company anymore, they want to join a crusade.” With that, David Burkus introduces one of the most striking ideas from our episode — that if you want to lead people, you need to pick a fight and do so wisely. Position yourself as your customers’ ally in a fight against the status quo, and you’ll inspire many more people to join you on that mission than if you just talk metrics and KPIs.

RESOURCES:

[2:04] Leading from Anywhere, by David Burkus
[4:34] Books by John Livesay
[11:25] Pick a Fight, by David Burkus

Follow John Livesay:

Follow David Burkus:

Follow Josh Linkner:

ABOUT MIC DROP:

Hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it’s starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.

Learn more at: MicDropPodcast.com

ABOUT THE HOST:

Josh Linkner is a Creative Troublemaker. He believes passionately that all human beings have incredible creative capacity, and he’s on a mission to unlock inventive thinking and creative problem solving to help leaders, individuals, and communities soar.

Josh has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million and is the author of four books including the New York Times Bestsellers, Disciplined Dreaming and The Road to Reinvention. He has invested in and/or mentored over 100 startups and is the Founding Partner of Detroit Venture Partners.

Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.

Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza.

Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.com

Episode Transcription

John Livesay:

Whoever tells the best story is the one that's going to win that pitch, not who has the best price or who has more bells and features.

Josh Linkner:

Hey, Mic Drop enthusiasts, Josh Linkner here. Delighted to be bringing you season two of Mic Drop. I love our conversations with speakers and industry leaders alike so we can unpack the industry and we can all perform better. Let's get after it and get better together.

Maria Cairo:

Mic Drop is brought to you by ImpactEleven, the most diverse and inclusive community built for training and developing professional speakers to get on bigger stages at higher fees with greater impact, faster.

They're not just elevating an industry that we all know and love. They work with thousands of speakers to launch and scale their speaking businesses. Accelerating time to success, earning tens of millions in speaking fees, landing bureau representation, securing book deals, and rising to the top of the field. To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's Impact, E-L-E-V-E-N, .com/connect.

Josh Linkner:

It's a double whammy on today's Mic Drop as we're joined by not one but two inspiring voices in this perplexing and ever-changing industry of ours. Livesay, also known as The Pitch Whisperer, is the speaking industry's sage of storytelling and he's the go-to expert for helping brands tell compelling stories to their own audiences. He's done exactly that for the likes of Coca-Cola, Olympus, Berkshire Hathaway, and many more big name clients, offering a roadmap for turning great products into narratives that customers just can't ignore.

I'm also joined by David Burkus, one of the leading minds in the business world, and one of its most provocative. He literally wrote the book on managing remote teams before COVID hit. Since then, he's been instrumental in helping organizations everywhere adapt to the seismic shifts brought on by remote work, especially when it comes to how leaders interact with their team members and their customers. Together, John and David provide a knowledge combo that's tough to beat. In our far-reaching conversation we cover a number of topics including why the worst time to start something new may actually be the best time. How storytelling is the one true universal language, and how to use that fact to take your keynotes to the next level. Why everyone is a chief culture officer, even in a team of one. And how picking a fight is the most powerful way to inspire people to action. Ready to pick some fights? Let's get ready to rumble. David and John, welcome to Mic Drop.

John Livesay:

Thanks, Josh.

David Burkus:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's great to

Josh Linkner:

Be with you two good friends and two incredible speakers and thought leaders, and today we're going to cover a range of topics. I'm so excited to learn from both of you on how you continue to build your practice and how you continue to drive impact. Just to get everybody oriented, I know that everybody doesn't know you as well as I do, I'd love to just hear a little bit about your backstory and your credentials. What led you to this moment in time where you're continuing your ascent in the speaking business? David, why don't you kick us off?

David Burkus:

Yeah, so I got into speaking depending on when you count, either 10 years ago or three years ago. Josh, you and I talked in the past about this idea of turning pro. I quote, unquote, "turned pro" at probably the worst possible time to do it. So I was a business school professor. I taught organizational psychology or behavior, HR, teams, motivation, all of those kind of topics, and spoke a little bit as I wrote all of these different books, one of which happened to be about remote work and remote teams. And so I got pretty busy when the pandemic started, and so I actually ended up leaving the university job entirely during the pandemic. I may be the only person who turned pro as a speaker during the pandemic. It was usually a really bad idea, but at the time there were just so many clients who were needing work on, how do I manage in that remote environment? And so since then I haven't really looked back. I've been 100% writing and speaking ever since then.

Josh Linkner:

That's awesome, love it. And John, what about you?

John Livesay:

My speaking career started 15 years ago when I was selling advertising for Conde Nast and I'd written my first book and I was fortunate enough to have the foreword done by another mutual friend of ours, Tim Sanders. And we would say to clients, advertise in our magazine, our readers could buy your products. And then as added value, I would come speak to their sales teams, whether it's a car company or a fashion company, all kinds of industries on how to sell through the luxury market and not take rejection personally. So then that started interest in not just speaking to advertiser's sales teams, but other sales teams started reaching out to me and I thought, oh, this is the direction I want to go in, because I've been in the audience's shoes, I know their pain points really well.

Josh Linkner:

That's awesome. And you guys have each both developed kind of an interesting angle. You're not just generic speakers, you talk about some specific stuff. So John, maybe I'll start with you. I know that stories are really crucial to who you are as a person who's very authentic and you kind of lead with that, how you can sell through stories. Can you elaborate a little bit on how you're sort of hyper focusing on a particular area to cut through the noise and stand out as a speaker?

John Livesay:

Well, having worked with you and the team at ImpactEleven, I've really hyperfocused on tech and healthcare sales teams who are struggling when they have to pitch against competitors and they're so tired of coming in second place. And so I tell them, I've written several books on this topic that whoever tells the best story is the one that's going to win that pitch, not who has the best price or who has more bells and features. And so that has allowed me to help teams ranging from Olympus to Coca-Cola tell better stories and start winning more sales without feeling pushy. And that's what people really love about storytelling.

Josh Linkner:

John, by the way, I couldn't agree with you more. As you know, I run a venture capital for Mudita Venture Partners. Just before this call, I was on a call with a CEO of one of our investments, and this person is technically a genius and they're brilliant, all this amazing stuff, and their product is elegant and tech forward and it's really difficult for them to tell the story. And you're exactly right. It's not always the best product that wins, it's often the best story that wins. And I think it's absolutely true in keynote speakers. It's one thing what we do on stage, but it's what we do off stage to get on stage in the first place. Before we go to David, how have you used storytelling in not just helping others sell their products, but helping you sell more speeches?

John Livesay:

Well, when you get... And I had ImpactEleven create this amazing sizzle demo reel for me, which gets me usually in the final two or three speakers. So we have to sell ourselves as speakers, and I will often tell them a story of how I became known as The Pitch Whisperer, for example. And I say, I was speaking to Anthem Insurance and I asked the question that you taught us to say is zoom out and don't just focus on your particular one hour keynote. I said, "What else is happening during the day?" And they said, "Oh, we're going to have an improvisation session at the end of the day and role-play handling objections." And I said, "What if I stayed after the keynote and would whisper in people's ear if they got stuck on something, something from my talk to keep it going?"

They love that idea so much. Nobody had even thought of asking a speaker to do that. And so when I offered that up, they said, boom, we're going to pick you. And then somebody during the session said, "Oh my gosh, I wish you could be in my ear all the time when I'm in the field." And I told Inc. Magazine this story when I was being interviewed and they said, "Wow, you sound like a pitch whisperer." And I loved it so much. I've trademarked it. And so now that becomes part of my introduction, again, that helps me stand out from other speakers on this topic. And they go, "Today we have The Pitch Whisperer here."

Josh Linkner:

So, so good because instead of you being a generic sales person, you're The Pitch Whisperer. I just love that. So smart, man. So David, how about you? You obviously had a book on remote work, as you mentioned, it blew up during COVID. You have a new book. How are you leaning into that new content and positioning yourself in a way that stands out from the competitive set?

David Burkus:

Yeah, so one of the things that really struck me. When I started my career, again, like I said, I was a business school professor, organizational psychologist, kind of writing about of a lot of different... I like to say I had intellectual ADHD and just a lot of different topics. And it wasn't until that fourth book when the through line of all of my past work kind of came to me. So essentially what happened, I had written about and studied future of work topics in the past. The publisher of one of those books said, "We know you talk about remote teams. Would you be interested in writing a whole book on remote work, on this trend?" And I said, "Well, I'm only interested in writing a book specifically on remote teams." There's a lot of great macro trend books about remote and there's a lot of great how to be productive when you work from home books.

But what nobody was doing was speaking to, "Hey, I'm a middle manager at a firm and I've led in-person for the last 15 years and now for the next two I have to lead remotely. How do I do that?" And as I was writing that, the realization that what I really do focus on is teams. The new book's called Best Team Ever. And I'm actually kind of in the process through y'all's help with ImpactEleven and others of kind of rebranding everything around that. And so it's kind of funny, I sort of take the opposite approach when I'm on a prospective call, when I'm on a pre-commitment call, which is, I'll sort of tell them the reasons you shouldn't work with me. I'm very, very specific about what I believe fundamentally is that if you're coming to me for talking about culture or engagement or building high performing teams, whatever, what we really need to focus in on is on teaching every leader at every level of the organization to take responsibility for their team, their team culture, and how that works.

And I'm happy to do that, I would love to teach your leaders at this meeting to do that. But if you're just looking for that inspirational talk, not me. If you're looking for, I like to say entertainment, evidence-based, and a little bit enlightening around, here's what the research says, here's what you can do. I'll try and make you laugh a few times, but my real goal is to get that, that every leader at every level is chief culture officer of their own team. And if we do that, we build a better company culture, but you got to be committed with me that that's what we're going to focus on. And then if we do, we work together. Now, the dirty little secret is very few people would disagree with that statement, but there are a few every once in a while that do.

Josh Linkner:

I love this because you're defining to a degree what you are by partly what you're not. And at the same time though, you're doing it in a really smart way because no one wants the [inaudible 00:10:41] you're not. You don't just want some cheesy motivational speaker. If you're like, oh, but if you want someone with substance and depth and it'll still be fun, you make it irresistible in that contrast and you're sort of steering them in the right direction. It's a very smart approach to it.

Just before we move back to a new topic, speaking of your work, David, I was looking before today back at some of your work and you wrote a book, and I loved the title. It was around picking a fight. Can you tell me a little bit about that? For me, it was really cool. Again, this notion of being sort of provocative and almost selectively polarizing a little bit and having an enemy, who doesn't want to track down an enemy? Tell us a little bit about that book. And by the way, how is that still influencing your work or your approach to marketing yourself as a professional speaker?

David Burkus:

Yeah, so Pick a Fight was a really fun project we did with Audible, so we did it audio only, but if you have not already turned off this podcast, I'm going to assume me narrating an audiobook to you is going to be great. And the idea here, the one liner on that whole book is that I fundamentally believe that people don't want to join a company anymore, they want to join a crusade. And so you as a leader or as a leadership team need to pick a fight. Not only do you need to pick a fight with something, but you need to choose that fight wisely. And by the way, it's very rarely a competitor. It's very rarely like, "We're Pepsi, we're going to pick a fight with Coke." What motivates people much more is either here's how we're changing the industry, here's how we're correcting an injustice.

Or what tends to work for a lot of organizations is, here's the fight our customers are involved in and we're their ally. I literally call that version of the fight the ally fight. Because people, they want to do work that matters and they want to work for leaders who tell them they matter. And the easiest way to do that is to go, here's what we're fighting for, here's what we're working toward and how the world will be better. And that's different by the way, than a generic mission statement, blah, blah, blah, blah, disruption, blah, blah, blah, innovation, integrity, excellence. Those don't stir anybody. But if you can say, this is an injustice in the world that we seek to change, you can recruit a lot of people to your cause, very energized, engaged, and they're going to give you their best because they know it's worth fighting for.

Josh Linkner:

We could have a two hour discussion on this. I love that, love that. And you can not only pick a fight with an injustice, you can even pick a fight with an idea that you disagree with. So as speakers, I think one of the things we're trying to change the world, obviously we wouldn't be doing this work without it, and maybe we're picking a fight against something. Specifically For me, it's picking a fight with this notion that people aren't creative when they really are. And I'm picking a fight with that limiting belief that taps people's creativity down. By the way, you can also use that in a keynote itself. Years ago I was doing a keynote for the Produce Marketing Association, and I don't know what made me think about it, but I started thinking about who's their enemy and started thinking like, oh, salty snacks.

And I don't know why. Just like 10 minutes before I did this keynote, I changed a couple slides and I did this big dramatic opening with there's this dark evil enemy out there and then click, and it was like a potato chip and these big corporations trying to poison the health of our bodies when we have the most delicious snacks growing in our backyard. And I just sort of used that as a rallying cry, as an experiment. I must've gotten 10 calls back from various produce marketing associations. I should do it more now that I remembered it. But I love the notion of picking a fight. John, when you think about your work, what are you picking a fight with? What ideas are you trying to change? How do you think about that notion of picking a fight?

John Livesay:

The biggest fight that I have to get people to think of is that people buy emotionally and not logically. And when they say, no, it's the data that's going to convince them or it's our design if they're an architecture firm that's going to make us win this business. And when I tell people that you need to be spending time on your team slide and telling each individual person's story of origin as opposed to just talking about what your product does, I get some pushback sometimes because who cares about that? They just want to get to what we're doing for them. And I said, no, people buy from people they trust, like, and know. So the fight I'm picking with is breaking the old pattern of we buy and hire people that we know, like, and trust.

The problem with that premise, Josh, is that if you think, oh, they got to get to know me. Let me send them more information, more facts, more figures, and I said, no, it starts with the gut. Do I trust you? Then it moves to the heart, do I like you? And then finally to the head, and it's still not the time for facts. The unspoken question is, will this work for me? Because they might trust and even like you, but if they don't think it's going to work for them, they're not going to hire you. And that's where storytelling really comes in because if you learn how to tell a story that other people see themselves in, boom, they want to go on the journey with you.

Josh Linkner:

It's so powerful. And just building on that, what advice would you give, you obviously give advice to companies about selling their products and salespeople and all that. What about we speakers? With that same basis, you start in the gut, they have to trust you, and then you move to your heart, you like you, and then the facts. How might a speaker reframe the way that they pitch themselves to a potential buyer using that strategy?

John Livesay:

Well, the number one thing is we have to become aware that trust is transferred. That's why warm introductions are key, referrals, people from the audience, someone who's heard you speak is recommending you. Boom, that's always the best place to try and start from. But sometimes it can be as simple Josh as just having good lighting if you're having a virtual call with somebody. Make sure someone can see your eyes, because we don't trust people that we can't see their eyes. I tell people, the only one who's allowed to wear sunglasses is the editor of Vogue, Anna Wintour. Nobody else can get away with wearing sunglasses or darkening them. So you must have that gut. Then it goes to the heart and it's your likability. And here's the secret to this, the better you show you understand their problem from research or interviewing some people, the better they think you have their solution.

And then finally, the head. Will this work for us? And that's where we as speakers are mitigating the risk. We've got a great sizzle reel, we've got testimonials, and then we give them some unexpected little experience that they don't even think of. So recently, S and P Global, which is part of the S and P 500, they just merged. They're a $140 billion company. They're having me do a virtual talk at the end of this month to over 900 people from around the world, and they said, we want you to come teach our people how to have a great elevator pitch. I said, well, first of all, we're killing the elevator pitch and we're turning it into an elevator story.

They're going to have an elevator pitch contest after my talk. And I said, what if I worked with the top 10 winners? Because they're going to have 10 winners from different regions, and gave an extra little bonus to your best of the best as an extra value added training? Well, they were ecstatically happy. So that's how you make yourself just from, oh, we were interested. This is ideal to, what you had said about what David is offering. That's what makes you irresistible.

Josh Linkner:

I love that. And part of what you said is people buy when they feel understood. David, when you're presenting yourself to potential buyer, maybe you made it to the short list, you're down to three speakers, doing an interview. How do you help tease out the problems that they're facing so that they really know that you understand what they're going through?

David Burkus:

So I'll be candid, a lot of times it happens before. Probably 50% or more of the time that I'm working with a client, I'm the only one they're considering. And then obviously when we're working with a bureau and what have you, there's sort of rounds. But the reason for that is that next to the pandemic, making the topic of a remote work suddenly popular, the single biggest thing that has kind of skyrocketed my business was in 2018, I flipped from hosting a podcast, no offense, and writing content to going video first, which is exactly John's point about they need to see you and trust you. I may not be on a Zoom call with you, but we post a short video, a TikTok reel, whatever you want to call it, every single weekday and an eight to 12 minute video every single Monday, and all of those are focused in on your problems.

So today's video is literally about, as we're recording this is about what do you do with a great performer who's not a great team player? And by the way, spoiler alert, if teamwork is part of their job, they're not actually a great performer if they're not a great team player. But the idea here is they're all sort of based on those problems. And so a lot of the time, probably 50% or more of the time, people are searching for a specific answer to a specific problem and then find my content there, and then eight to 10 minutes of me kind of saying, here's what you would do in that situation. And then reach out and go, could you go deeper with our team on that? Could you do more of that? Maybe they read the book and say, could you talk more about the book? But a lot of times it's them looking for that specific problem.

So you almost demonstrated understanding when you made the content to begin with that starts the conversation. And then if you are in those situations where you're in the round, you're one of three or four, et cetera. This kind goes back to, and I think John would totally agree, sort of basic sales of listening more than you're talking. I take copious notes partly because I want them, partly I want to be seen on the Zoom call as taking notes on their problem. And then coming back and what I'm always circling are the key words that I heard them say that are going to resonate with my content and my situation. And then at the very end, there's this one line I learned from all of our mutual friends, Laura Gassner Otting, that I absolutely love and use in a lot of those pre-commitment calls, which is, okay, so we're facing some pretty big problems, and I'm sure they seem really, really difficult.

The good news is they're not unique to me. Here's examples of other organizations I've worked with with similar problems and how we solved it. And you could call that storytelling if you want, but it's, again, that example of like, okay, I've understood your problems, and the bad news is they're difficult. The good news is they're not unique to me and the previous clients I've worked with, and here's how we're going to go about tackling them.

Maria Cairo:

Becoming a keynote speaker is an amazing profession. The top performers earn millions while driving massive impact for audiences around the world, but the quest to speaking glory can be a slow rot with many obstacles that can knock even the best speakers out of the game. If you're serious about growing your speaking business, the seasoned pros at ImpactEleven can help. From crafting your ideal positioning to optimizing your marketing effectiveness to perfecting your expertise and stage skills. As the only speaker training and development community run by current high level speakers at the top of the field, they'll boost your probability of success and help you get there faster. That's why nearly every major speaker bureau endorses and actively participates in ImpactEleven. The ImpactEleven community provides you unparalleled access to the people relationships, coaching and accountability that compresses your time to success. To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's Impact, E-L-E-V-E-N, .com/connect.

Josh Linkner:

Even the shift to say, here's how we're going to go about solving them as a brilliant piece of language. John?

John Livesay:

I have a tip that I want to piggyback on what David just said about video. So what I've done is we have this amazing footage if anybody goes and has you shoot their demo video, and then I edit some of that footage down to 30 second clips on my social media and have posted that on a regular basis. And I actually had a bureau reach out to me based on seeing my video clips from the demo day and said, "Oh, we've been watching you on LinkedIn. Your video clips are really intriguing. We'd like to represent you." Which as we all know, rarely happens. We're trying to get bureaus to want to work with us. So I want to really double down on A, the importance of having a great video and B, using small clips of that for social media. But of course, you have to have the good footage, which is what ImpactEleven provides.

Josh Linkner:

That's such a great point sort of repurposing. You create one piece of content and there's lots of ways that it can live. You write something, it can live in a written format, it can be in video, you can chop it up into little social tiles. I mean, the notion of reusing assets is really smart. Speaking of that, I appreciate you sharing a tactical move like that. John and David, you both have seen really strong success and momentum over the last 12 months in your business. What are one or two ahas or insights, things that you've tried, you've implemented recently that you're seeing some nice results from that others listening may also benefit from? John, why don't we start with you?

John Livesay:

Well, I think the key is to realize that you need to be planting seeds all the time. We're attracting new clients, we're converting them on the conversation calls, and then we're delivering the keynotes. And if you happen to get really busy and you're on the road a lot, or you're doing two keynotes in a week, which the first time that happened for me, I was thrilled. And then I realized, oh, I can't let this take up all of my time. I still need to segment my calendar. So I'm still working on creating relationships and seeds and then making time to have conversations with clients even if I'm on the road so that I can't just be focused on the delivery because it will dry up your sales pipeline if you only focus on, oh, now I'm busy, I don't have to worry about anything.

Josh Linkner:

That's great. David, what about you? Any ahas that you've embraced or implemented over the last 12 months?

David Burkus:

Yeah, I mean, I share the tip about video as if I knew it was going to work out ahead of time. The truth is it didn't, and if I'm being totally honest, I did it all wrong in the beginning. I posted two to three minute horizontal videos on YouTube at a time where the algorithm wanted 30 minute long videos, and then I flipped to long videos right when they came up with YouTube shorts. So I stumbled into all of it. So the aha for me was A, how well it works, but also how well direct to just speaking direct to camera works. I think in John's videos that he's putting out that are clips and repurpose content from things like demo days are awesome, but you'd be amazed how often, just a quick, when I was talking to this customer, they mentioned this problem. Let me get out my phone, let me get out a webcam, whatever it is, and just film a 60 second direct to camera, how often that really, really works.

I mean, candidly, what I'm doing now is pretty much anytime I'm getting from a past client, current client or what have you, something that's a unique problem, a unique situation, a unique request for my advice, I'm giving that advice and then I'm going and making content about it. So the next time it comes up, I can just say, here's a video that I did on how to do that. And it just sends this message about, wow, he must know so much, because so much content out there. Not really. I was scrambling in the beginning. But eventually it's like a flywheel, it just gets easier and easier and easier. So yeah, it's been a great year. Thank you for kind of acknowledging that, it's been awesome, but we just dumb lucked into that flywheel. And so that'd be my biggest encouragement is just keep turning that, just keep turning the crank, making content, getting better at speaking, getting better at those sales calls, and it gets easier to make that circle every single time. That's how flywheels work.

John Livesay:

I'd love to comment on that because I think you really tapped on something, which is, when we listen to our clients' pain points, that becomes our marketing copy. So I've had people over and over again tell me, oh, we are so tired of coming in second place when we pitch against competition. So now that's part of my story that I talk about. It's a problem I solve. "Are you struggling with that?" "Yes, how'd you know?" "Because I heard it multiple times across multiple industries." And so that's another really great tip. If you're struggling with what is my little elevator story that I'm going to tell people who I'm helping and what problem I'm solving, literally take the words out of your client's mouth and repurpose it because if they're struggling with it, other people are.

David Burkus:

Yeah, and I'm going to steal the spotlight from Josh just to shine it back on him, this is exactly what you and I were talking about with your new find a way kind of rebrand for you personally is the number of people saying, oh, we just want our people to be more creative or innovative is going down, but the number of people that are like, we're dealing with all of these different situational factors and all of these different environmental changes, and we just need our people to be able to solve it, to find a way, to push forward no matter what. That's literally you rebranding around what your clients are actually hearing. And again, clients are unique, companies are unique. They think their problems are unique to them, they're really not. It's like the old Tolstoy novel that all happy families are alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own unique way, except it's different with companies. Every dysfunctional company usually is dysfunctional for one of just a few reasons.

Josh Linkner:

Well, just a couple of reflections. Thank you for saying that, David. It was really kind of you and John has reminded me to think you're The Pitch Whisperer, but you're also the pitch listener and musicians, I have a background in music. The best players are the best listeners, not just the best technicians, and I'm not surprised at all that your whispering expertise comes also in a part from being a really smart listener, that's awesome. And David, I really appreciate too, thanks for sharing that some of the stuff didn't work out at first. That's really encouraging. When we see people like you two blowing up on social media and something I try doesn't work, I feel bad about myself, and I appreciate you sharing that it doesn't always work.

And what it really is running a lot of experiments. That's what I always work with people. It's like, hey, let's run the experiment. Let's run the experiment. And progress is often a series of experiments. Many don't work out, and then every now and then one does. So we talked about some of the experiments that you've both done on social media on talking to customers to win keynotes. What are some experiments that you've been running over these last 12 months on stage? What are you doing differently from the platform? What have you been trying and what seems to be resonating? And David, why don't we start with you.

David Burkus:

So I kind of reworked how I structure keynotes now. So one of the downsides of making all of this content that's problem oriented is you end up doing a lot more customized. Hey, we watched this one 10 minute video. Can you do a 60 second or 60 minute keynote on it or a 90 minute workshop? And so you're having to write original content, but I sort of stumbled into this formula that seems to be consistently working, and I jokingly call it my three by three, which is whatever the topic is, and again, it has to be inside the realm of teams and team culture and performance. I don't talk about marketing for example, but whatever it is, whether it's, hey, can you talk about psychological safety? Can you talk about collaboration? There's three main points. There's a story for each of those points, there's some data for each of those points, and then there's three takeaways for every one.

So by the end of the talk, I can confidently say, "And I've given you nine different ways you can get started implementing this." Which by the way, meeting planners really love. It's like the number one positive comment I get from meeting planners afterwards is, "Thanks for making it so tactical." But it's because I think in that format. So it used to be really difficult for me to think out a new keynote when I wrote a new book or what have you, but now I start by that. It's three by three. Okay, what are my three main points? There's only time for three. And what are the three takeaways for each of those main points? So at the end, and I'll confidently say, "Look, I've given you nine. I'm not optimistic. I don't think all nine are going to work, but I know one of them is going to work. So get started trying until you find the one that does."

Josh Linkner:

It's a really good structure three by three. So three big ideas, three supporting stories, and three tactics. Love that. John, what about you? What have you been experimenting with on stage?

John Livesay:

I've been experimenting with becoming more vulnerable and really looking at my entire talk and saying, I have this story about being laid off after being at Conde Nast for 15 years and what it felt like a kick to the gut and how to reinvent myself and all that emotional baggage that went through that. And I moved that up much further in the opening of my keynote now to, while everyone knows to be on stage, obviously you've written books, we get that you have some credibility. So I think it ups my likability factor. And then I looked at my closing big story and made sure that I didn't just have that, but I added in the vulnerability of what it felt like to get divorced and how I had to rewrite my masterpiece, encouraging everyone to think of themselves as an artist and paint over their masterpieces like Picasso had to do in the forties due to their shortage of canvases.

But adding in that I had to do that personally with my divorce as well as professionally when the pandemic hit and that all of us are going to have to rewrite our masterpieces. And so now the feedback I get is, "You were inspiring, you were entertaining. I tell better stories now, and you were really vulnerable." And I never used to get that feedback. And I think it's allowing people to connect with me because if we just come across as everything we always do is perfect and we never struggle, it's a little hard to relate to. So that's my big thing I've really implemented that's making a big difference.

Josh Linkner:

So good. And you're exactly right. If you come across and we've seen speakers that are very smart and talented, good body of work, and they come across as like, oh, I've never made a mistake and I'm all cocky and arrogant, and we kind of don't like them. The likability is, you use that word, plummets. Whereas if you're able to share in an authentic warm way, be able to share your own struggles and be in an authentic and vulnerable manner, the opposite happens. Now we fall in love with you and then when you tell us about one of your triumphs, we're the first one cheering the loudest for you because we've kind of fallen in love as opposed to, oh, great, here's another example of this person's so awesome and I feel not awesome. So I think it's a really, really smart approach.

So the industry is continuing to evolve, and I know none of us have a crystal ball, but what are some of the things that you're doing to adapt to the changing conditions? We've got AI, we've got these combinations of hybrid events, and John, maybe I'll stay with you for a minute. We talked about your last 12 months, some of the experiments that you've run, what are you thinking about testing in the next 12 to 18 months, whether it's technology or marketing or just as you think about continuing to reinvent yourself and your practice, what are you focusing on in this next chapter?

John Livesay:

One of the things I'm focusing on next is not just doing a one-off keynote. That I love it when they ask me to stay for a workshop and then I show them some examples of, for example, with Olympus, they created a whole repository map where all the case stories live and it breaks down silos. It helps them win new business. It becomes an onboarding tool for new hires and say, this is the kind of in-depth project we can work on together. And when I show people that map, they usually get very intrigued and realize, oh, not only do we want you as a speaker, but we want that map because it's solving a lot of problems we have, and you have an online course that goes with your talk, fantastic. We're in. So I'm really expanding that focus that when you work with me, it's not just one and done.

Josh Linkner:

Value beyond the stage and you're providing it in a number of different formats and you, you're further monetizing your own thought leadership and standing out from the competitive set. Love it. David, what about you? How are you thinking about this next chapter going forward?

David Burkus:

Yeah, so actually really similar to John, the only difference is, I would say I'm still, usually all of those things don't monetize. So I'm doing a lot of experiments in what all of our mutual friends, Ryan Estis, he always calls it the aftercare program, and I hope that he didn't trademark that like John trademarked Pitch Whisperer because I stole aftercare and I use it in conversations often. So hopefully I don't get a call from Ryan's lawyer. But it's similar. Whether it's a regular online course, whether it's, hey, here are the specific pieces of content. One of the nice things about having a lot of that problem-based content out there is you get found, but now I'm trying to, how can I repurpose that to get those lessons continued? And it's not necessarily interested in, hey, I want to sell you licenses to my course, or I want to come back and do a webinar for a second fee, et cetera.

I'm just trusting and investing in the long-term relationships. One of the biggest changes, whether AI accelerates it or not, is how frequently people are rotating companies. And if I provided value to you, value that followed you through to some sort of new company, there'll be business to win on the back end of that. Maybe it's five years from now, seven years from now, whatever, but there'll be business to win. And so I'm just going to kind of invest in that. And that's very different than the pre-pandemic world of Keynote where it's like you're off the stage and to the airport almost immediately.

Josh Linkner:

I really admire both of your commitment to the craft, commitment to driving impact in your clients, commitment to building a practice that's successful, and it's obviously paying off in a big way for both of you. My last question before we say goodbye today, and I'll ask it to each of you is, what's a piece of advice that you would give to somebody who's a little bit behind you in their journey of professional speaking? Maybe they've got a couple gigs under their belt, they're not starting from zero, but they're trying to become the next John Livesay, they're trying to be to become the next David Burkus. What advice do you have for them as they ascend the mountain that you've done such a beautiful job climbing? David, why don't we start with you?

David Burkus:

Yeah, well, I'll just echo advice I got from somebody further along, if that's okay. In I think it was 2015 or 2016, so I had yet to kind of quote, unquote "turn pro", but I still sort of thought of myself as a, like a lot of amateurs do. I was interviewing for a podcast I used to host. I was interviewing Daniel Pink. Now Daniel is someone I totally admire. I used to make a big joke about how I aspire to be the next, next Daniel Pink. Someone was going to steal the title from Dan, and then I would steal the title from her. That was my big joke, because I was 20 something years younger than Dan, and I asked him a question after the interview. I just said, we were talking about a bunch of different things and I just expressed my frustration. I'm like, "Dan, you do this and you have this. You sell this many copies by the boatload and you have this fee and what have you. What could I do to of hasten that?"

And he said, "Well, it's actually sort of the opposite." He said, "You got to give yourself a longer runway. The bigger a plane is and the higher it's going to fly, the shorter a runway or the longer a runway it has." And he was like, the exact words were, "Well, I've been doing this for 20 years and you've been doing it for four, so you need to give yourself a longer runway." And it goes back to that flywheel that I was talking about earlier. Sometimes it's super easy when you're starting out to get super frustrated that, I did this experiment, it didn't work. You'll connect the dots eventually, just give yourself a longer runway so you'll have more velocity to take off with.

Josh Linkner:

So good. I'm a huge Dan Pink fan also. And by the way, just talk about him for a second. I love how he challenges things that we think are absolute. His last book was about the power of regret, and we all think you should have no regrets. And people get tattoos that say no regrets, and he's like, "Regrets are what make you human. Here's how you can learn from them." Putting that book aside, the whole notion is he's taking an existing belief and challenging it head on. And another reason why I think he's enjoyed such remarkable success, I'm a huge fan of his like you are. John, what about you? What's some advice that you might give to someone who is climbing the mountain, the [inaudible 00:36:40] of the mountain you just climbed?

John Livesay:

Well, I'm going to give the people the advice that I got from our mutual friend, Alison Levine, when she was telling me her story of how she broke into the industry. And you look at her life and you think, she's climbed Mount Everest, the first woman to do it. She's got a New York Times bestseller. Of course, she's got a speaking career. And when you really hear that she had to struggle too, and they were like, "Did you lose a limb? We have somebody else who lost a limb." And she was like, "What?" The advice I have is be prepared and get the reps in so when you do get that call to give a talk, you are ready to speak in front of thousands of people, and you're not going to be ready if you're not speaking on a regular basis.

So do what you need to do so when opportunity does call, you're not a deer in headlights going, God, I haven't given a talk in a month. I don't even know what... I'm a little rusty. That's not how a professional prepares. And so Alison was always ready to go when she got that last minute call that changed her whole career. And so I think the other thing is what are we saying to ourselves in between the calls? Or you think you planted a seed and nothing's happened from it? Well, if you planted a seed and you keep digging it up, it's not going to grow. You put a cake in the oven, you keep opening the oven door, the cake won't rise. I think the same thing is true, those analogies for our own speaking career, trust the process. Take a breath, get some coaching, get the reps in, and realize that you're on your own path. And ideally, don't compare yourself to other people.

Josh Linkner:

Beautiful wisdom bombs from two incredible thought leaders and good friends. David and John, thank you. Thank you for your contribution today. Thank you for your leadership in the industry. I couldn't be more proud to be riding alongside both of you as you continue to just do incredible things out there. Thanks to you both. Thanks for sharing your Mic Drop moments with all of us.

John Livesay:

Thanks, Josh. It's been great.

David Burkus:

No, thank you.

Josh Linkner:

I am so grateful to have the opportunity to speak with John and David today. They're both inspiring and also tuned into the technical skills required to be a great keynote speaker. It's tough to pick out gems from a conversation that was absolutely filled with them, but here are some of my personal favorites. Number one, I really connected with David and John's thoughts on defining who you are as a speaker, and even more importantly, who you're not. Being willing to tell a potential client that you're just not the right fit, well, that takes courage, but it will help you build the career you really want. Number two, John, a resident storytelling expert really floored me with his simple mantra, the best story wins. Our clients make the best products, have the best cultures, but if we don't help them tell the best story, they come up short. Similarly, the speaker with the best story is the most likely to land the keynote gig.

And number three, what stirs people isn't business objectives, it's big ideas. When you pick a fight with a social injustice or even simply an inefficiency in the world that you want to fix, you get way greater buy-in from your audience than if you just go straight to the charts, graphs, and numbers. David and John, thanks so much for joining me on today's episode of Mic Drop. And thanks for reminding us all that whether you're on stage, on screen, or grinding it out developing your next keynote, the best story wins.

Thanks so much for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share it with your friends and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit micdroppodcast.com. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Thanks so much for listening, and here's to your next Mic Drop moment.