Mic Drop

The Brooklyn Badass (ft. Alec Melman)

Episode Summary

On this week’s Mic Drop, we expand our horizons beyond keynote speaking to look at a powerhouse agency that represents a wide range of performers. Gotham Artists is known for its innovative approach and unique roster of talent that stretches from keynote speakers to musicians, stand up comics, and more. Joined by Gotham Artists co-founder and CEO Alec Melman, we’ll dive deep on everything from uncertainty in the speaking world to why bureaus should do less for their clients.

Episode Notes

The Brooklyn Badass (ft. Alec Melman)

OPENING QUOTE:

“Being adaptable and being patient, that'll answer for those feelings of frustration. If you can hold on long enough, good things happen.”

-Alec Melman

GUEST BIO:

Alec Melman is co-founder and CEO of Gotham Artists, one of the most successful and respected talent agencies in the country. Founded in 2009, Gotham is known for its innovative approach and unique roster of talent that stretches from keynote speakers to musicians, stand up comics and more. For 14 years, Alec has helped guide and grow Gotham every step of the way through intense and dramatic changes in the industry.

Links:

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[5:33] - The Extra Inch

Little things that add up to big impact

To Alec, explaining Gotham’s success as a bureau is simple: customer service. Gotham is simply “a little faster, a little nicer, and a little sharper.” Things like getting back to people quickly makes them stand out relative to the inefficiencies of some other bureaus, and that’s led Gotham to grow at the astonishing rate it has.

[10:36] - The Agency-Speaker Connection

When to go exclusive and how to know it’s time for a change

Alec discusses how most of Gotham’s exclusive partnerships with speakers grow out of existing relationships. He expresses how bureaus want to go exclusive with speakers they’ve worked with before, having booked 7-10 dates before even broaching the exclusive conversation. How does this apply to speakers? Be patient. Building those bureau relationships in your non-exclusive days will pay dividends down the road.

[28:39] - Ongoing Connection in the Digital Era

Why Alec is a believer in virtual keynotes

Alec believes that people who don’t believe in virtual keynotes and other disruptive technologies fail to understand them. They’re not the “redheaded stepchild” of in-person — they’re a unique opportunity in their own right. He uses the example of a $100,000 speaking budget. An in-person event would spend that budget on one or two massive names, one big splash. That has value, of course. But so does spreading that budget out over 12 monthly installments, bringing in smaller names who can cover a range of topics. Virtual isn’t better or worse than in-person, it’s simply a separate opportunity.

[30:33] - The Bureau of Less

How doing less for speakers helps Gotham serve them better

Alec approaches every decision for his clients using the “triangle of decision-making.” Is it profitable? Is it fun? Does it match our long-term vision? If the answer to all of those questions isn’t an enthusiastic “yes,” then it’s not right. “I don’t want to take our eyes off the prize and start focusing on ancillary activities,” he says. “If the opportunity knocks, we’ll be ready for it, but I’m not going out of my way and trying to make that materialize.

In this way, Gotham serves its clients by doing a few things very, very well, rather than trying to do 100 things somewhat competently. Gotham’s focus, not their breadth, has allowed them to grow and excel.

RESOURCES:

[1:46] About Gotham Artists

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Follow Josh Linkner:

ABOUT MIC DROP:

Hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it’s starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.

Learn more at: MicDropPodcast.com

ABOUT THE HOST:

Josh Linkner is a Creative Troublemaker. He believes passionately that all human beings have incredible creative capacity, and he’s on a mission to unlock inventive thinking and creative problem solving to help leaders, individuals, and communities soar.

Josh has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million and is the author of four books including the New York Times Bestsellers, Disciplined Dreaming and The Road to Reinvention. He has invested in and/or mentored over 100 startups and is the Founding Partner of Detroit Venture Partners.

Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.

Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza.

Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.com

Episode Transcription

Alec Melman:

... being adaptable and being patient, that'll answer for those feelings of frustration. If you can hold on long enough, good things happen.

Josh Linkner:

Hey, Mic Drop enthusiast, Josh Linkner here, delighted to be bringing you season two of Mic Drop. I love our conversations with speakers and industry leaders alike so we can unpack the industry and we can all perform better. Let's get after it and get better together.

Maria Cairo:

Mic Drop is brought to you by ImpactEleven, the most diverse and inclusive community built for training and developing professional speakers to get on bigger stages at higher fees with greater impact, faster.

They're not just elevating an industry that we all know and love, they work with thousands of speakers to launch and scale their speaking businesses, accelerating time to success, earning tens of millions in speaking fees, landing bureau representation, securing book deals, and rising to the top of the field.

To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's impacteleven.com/connect.

Josh Linkner:

Today on Mic Drop, we're expanding our horizons beyond keynote speaking to look at a powerhouse agency that represents a wide range of performers, and who better to join us than the person who leads this phenomenal agency and has been there from its very beginning, Alec Melman. Alec is co-founder and CEO of Gotham Artists, one of the most successful and respected talent agencies in the country. Founded in 2009, Gotham is known for its innovative approach and unique roster of talent that stretches from keynote speakers to musicians, standup comics and more. For 14 years, Alec has helped guide Gotham every step of the way through a lot of dramatic changes in the industry. He's also a longtime friend and an all around incredible human being.

On today's episode with Alec, we'll discuss how the widespread volatility and uncertainty in the business can actually open up massive opportunities for speakers. We also dive deep on some of the technical aspects of the agency speaker connection, including exclusive versus non-exclusive speakers, how to know if your approach isn't working, and why human beings will always matter on both sides of the relationship. Alec also shares why he's making an effort to do less, not more, for his clients.

Alec Melman, welcome to Mic Drop.

Alec Melman:

Thanks for having me, Josh.

Josh Linkner:

So I've been really looking forward to our conversation because we go back many, many years, and I really hold you in such high regard in not only being one of the top bureaus in the country, but also one of the most progressive, someone who's willing to shake things up and try new things. For those of us that are less familiar with Gotham, can you maybe just give us a little bit of an overview of what's the bureau all about, where are things sitting today, and a little bit of your backstory, how you got to the point where we are currently.

Alec Melman:

All right, I'll answer those in reverse order, so the backstory first, which is I didn't even know what a speakers bureau was, I'd never heard of it. I was in law school and I was working for an attorney, and he happened to be an entertainment lawyer who represented a speakers bureau, and I went to work at that speakers bureau, and that's where I met my then business partner and we started Gotham Artists. That would be 14 years ago now, so I was there for three years, been running Gotham for 14 years. And where we're at today is we're a team of about 16 people and still very much at our core a speakers bureau, but we also book comedy and music, and we work with colleges, associations and corporations, so we do a mix of different entertainment. Wherever there's a stage, we hope to put the talent on that stage.

Josh Linkner:

And what percentage of your work these days is working with exclusive speakers versus independent speakers?

Alec Melman:

So we started the company almost entirely as a non-exclusive bureau. Part of that was strategic in the sense of we couldn't convince anyone to sign with us upstarts, and part of that was, this way, we could really be buyer focused, we could be the buyer's advocate and help them. They know that when we're sending them ideas, we're sending them the best ideas, not just the people that we represent. Even if it's represented by another agency, we think this is the best person to speak at your event. And slowly, over the years, the last couple of years in particular post-COVID, we've made more of a push to sign exclusive speakers. But even now, exclusive speakers as of last year made up about 8% of our revenue, 92% of our revenue is still derived from non-exclusive speakers, comedy and music.

Josh Linkner:

That's very helpful. And I think you're one of the fastest growing bureaus, you've had a tremendous amount of success over these last 14 years. When you are talking to a client and someone says, "Well, why should I switch from my current bureau to Gotham?" How are you positioning yourself in the market as different than your competitive set?

Alec Melman:

As corny as it sounds, it just comes down to customer service. It's really just we're a little faster, we're a little nicer and a little sharper. That's it. And we're just getting back to people quick, a freakishly fast response, as you say, and we're the beneficiaries of the inefficiency of others. Because major talent agencies are so big, they don't have the time to deal with a $20,000 inquiry. Our sweet spot is, let's say, the $20,000 to $30,000 speaker, and that might be way below what a major talent agency is focused on. That leaves a lot of room in the market for us, where that may not be enough to interest a big talent agency, it's enough to interest us and to have us be on top of it. So that would be, I think, one of our strengths, is that we're small enough that we can be nimble, and we're not a giant mega talent agency where they're only focusing on the top 1% of the marketplace.

Josh Linkner:

I admire, and we've talked about this many times over the years, on how you try to find the white space, where you try to find areas of opportunity, like you just pointed out, where others are not, where you can win. Switching from the bureau hat to the speaker hat, what are you seeing in the marketplace for speakers? Is it a particular fee range or particular approach, a particular geographic area? Are there any little pockets of white space that you might identify that we speakers could pursue?

Alec Melman:

Starting with topics, for example, we've seen a lot of mental health burnout, company culture, everyone is talking about company culture, from even our small company, about how often are we meeting in person, what level of return to office should we be focused on? And that's just a company with 15 people. Imagine a company with 1,500 or 15,000. And so, those issues keep coming back. There's a lot of anxiety out there in business, there's a lot of fractiousness, if that's a word, where they're trying to rebuild their cultures. And so, we are getting a lot of interest in speakers that are on that topic, and it's something that was previously dismissed as, let's say, a soft skill, has suddenly come to the forefront as one of the more important pieces of the puzzle of keeping a company going.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, I completely agree. What else are you seeing that's shifted in the last handful of years? One example I think of as the motivational speaker of the past, plaid jacket suit, over-exaggerated, very inauthentic, and now, it's much more vulnerable and revealing and warmth. So that's just one stylistic shift, but what are some of the other shifts that you've seen over the last 14 years about what maybe worked in the past but really is very different, what's working now?

Alec Melman:

I would say what's old is new again, because suddenly, I feel like the term motivational speaker is not as weighted as it had been, it's almost come back in vogue. People are not ashamed to say that they are looking for motivation, they are looking to inspire their teams. And when it becomes something of a corny or cheesy thing, is now becoming back, I think, to the center, in a lot of ways. So where it was a term that a lot of agencies would avoid in the past, almost now, I feel like we're leaning into it. This is the thing that's going to motivate the team, this is the thing that's going to inspire your audience, and we're leaning into that more heavily and it's not the bad word that it had been, so that's been a shift.

The other shift I would say is the high-end of the market continues to grow because I feel like it's harder to get people off their couches, off their screens, and so the public facing events are in an ever-increasing battle for attention, and so they're spending accordingly and getting bigger and bigger names. Whereas, on the corporate side, internal, I mean, those events, I think, companies are starting to realize we don't need to spend $100,000 to have impact. There's a lot of great speakers in that $20,000 to $30,000 range. Even down to $15,000, you can get a really amazing speaker that'll have a real impact on your company or your audience, and you don't have to break the bank to do that. I think more companies are embracing that.

Josh Linkner:

And so, Alec, you said you have about 8% of your bureau is now exclusive relationships. When you work with an exclusive speaker, what are you doing differently than if you're working with an independent? I think a lot of people who are listening are still trying to understand the pros and cons, the benefits, of teaming up exclusively with one partner versus remaining independent. Could you shed some light on it, share how you interact, how you support those exclusive bureau partners, perhaps better or different than you would an independent speaker?

Alec Melman:

Absolutely. So we have two levels. We start with what we call the preferred model, and then we go up to the Gotham Collective, that's the exclusive. So it's non-exclusive preferred, then collective. And generally, we're at a point now where we want to be in working relationship with them already, we don't to sign people we've never worked with before. We want to have seven to 10 dates already booked and played before we even broach the exclusive conversation. This is a chance for them to learn how we work, a chance for us to learn about them and if it jives with what our company culture is all about. And it's not just about the speakers who get the most dates, it's the people that we believe in their message and that they're easy to work with and they're fun to work with.

So we have a decision-making triangle. Is it profitable? Does it align with our long-term vision? And is it fun? And it has to match at least two out of three of those, and it cannot contradict any of them in order for us to proceed on someone. So what we do, a lot of times, we do the preferred relationship. It's basically you're listing us on your site, you're directing all inbound inquiries to us, including from other bureaus, we're seeing what the level of interest is, the dollars that you're getting. And if you're starting to approach a level of, let's say, $150,000, $200,000 in annual revenue, it becomes a conversation that we want to have about joining as a collective member.

Josh Linkner:

Once you're that preferred member, what does it mean to the speaker to go from preferred to collective?

Alec Melman:

All right. So there it's, you're getting more touch points, you're getting data and analytics. How many times are we recommending you? To what groups? What's your close and conversion rate? We're doing a lot of the backend work for getting you up with the other bureaus, so we always encourage the co-brokering relationship. We want every other bureau to feel very comfortable booking our speakers, know that Gotham is an ally to their success as well, and so that takes a lot of work, it's just updating.

Different speakers have different needs. One of our top speakers, the best thing we could offer him was basically an administrative back office. He just wanted to focus on speaking and didn't want to deal with any of anything else that was administrative, and we took that whole lift off. And another speaker who I was speaking with was like, "I know how to do that, I can book my own flights, that's not a pain point for me." And for that person, she wanted us to do more just outright marketing and branding, and making sure that her offering is known to as many people as possible. So different speakers have different needs, but thankfully, we have such a good team here, we were able to accommodate those. But the biggest difference between preferred and exclusive is the level of touch points and data, and we're doing quarterly reviews with them or monthly reviews as needed, and managing their calendar, and that's the level of relationship.

Josh Linkner:

What do you think the downside is? It sounds terrific, obviously, I'd rather be a collective than a preferred. Is there any downside to a speaker working at that level? Does it, for example, create friction in the channel, or perhaps create a disincentive for other bureau partners to become active participants in that speaker's success?

Alec Melman:

Well, there's two ways to look at that question, the downside from the agent's perspective or the downside from the speaker's perspective. So why don't we start with the speaker's perspective first, which is, if you go with an agency, yes, you do run the risk that other agencies lose interest. So what many of us have done is we've built what they call the management model, where we're able to give full commission, 20% commission, to other bureaus. So they feel the sales incentive at least that they're going to get a full commission as if they were booking someone who is a non-exclusive anyway. There may be a little bit of that feeling if you've already worked with a speaker, and now, suddenly they're exclusive, you feel somehow turned off, but it hasn't been the case, at least with the speakers that we've worked with.

Now, what is a downside is you have to recognize that this is always a good faith effort, it's always a good faith, we're jumping in together on our mutual success, and it doesn't always work. Not every speaker that we sign is going to become the next superstar. And in the back of your head, as a speaker, you may start to get a little concerned, you're not seeing the dates, there's a little bit of impatience there, and you have to know that statistically, not every speaker that a bureau is going to sign is going to hit. And that could create a little bit of anxiety, I would say, in a speaker who's just signed with someone and they don't see the immediate results.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, makes a ton of sense. The way I look at it too is that it is much more strategic and longer term than just transactional when somebody becomes part of that collective, which is pretty exciting. You've said to me many times, which I just love this quote, you really seared it into my mind, that bureaus, not just Gotham, but bureaus in general, are really good at accelerating something that's already in motion, but not as good at getting it started. And so, for a speaker that has already got a few dates, what are some of the best ways to work with the channel, approach new bureau relationships, so that they can start to benefit from that acceleration that you and others can provide?

Alec Melman:

That's a great question and one I've been grappling with the whole time I've been in this industry, which is, what is that turning point where suddenly you have a bureau's interest, and that Catch-22 of you need to be on stages to get an agent's interest, but you can only get on those stages because an agent puts you there, so which comes first in that scenario? And the best speakers are the ones that they don't see the agent as the route to their success, they see them as a partner in their success. And the best speakers are the ones that after they've signed with the bureau, they're working just as hard as they were before they did. They're still putting out as much content as possible, they're still thought leaders in their spaces, they're still actively responding quickly to people that are emailing them directly, looping them in. It's a mistake to sit back and say, "Well, I have an agent now and they're going to do everything that I need them to do."

The other piece is you need to be patient. My timeline for speakers and what their trajectory is keeps getting longer. I used to say it's going to take six months, now I say it's going to take 18 months. From the time that I first learn about a speaker, and then educate myself, and then the rest of the Gotham team has to get educated on it, they have to educate their buyers, their buyers have decision makers of their own at their companies that need to learn about the speaker. By the time you get on stage, from the first meeting that I've ever had with the speaker, it's a solid 18 months to two years from when we started talking. And a lot of speakers are not comfortable with that idea, it seems like forever, but that's the standard, I find.

And to answer your question more directly of what can speakers do who are just getting started to attract a bureau or to start having those conversations, you do need to have gotten your feet wet a lot on your own. You do need to have some solid reel, at least, I would say, $100,000 in bookings, that's 10 dates at $10,000 a pop. Sounds impossible when you're starting out, but eventually, you do get there if you are persistent about it. And then, if you're fortunate enough to have inbound inquiries, to share those with bureaus. Nothing will get your attention faster than saying to a bureau, "I have this group, they're interested in me, I'd like you to be the one to run it and I will do it at this percentage." And you say straight up, "It's because I want you to learn about who I am and what my speech is about." That gives the agent, they get a commission, sure, but they also get an opportunity to learn who you are and then recommend you to 15 other clients.

So you have to be fortunate enough to already have inbound inquiries to share those carrots with people, but that's one that always goes over like a lead balloon, but I still believe in it.

Maria Cairo:

Becoming a keynote speaker is an amazing profession. The top performers earn millions, while driving massive impact for audiences around the world. But the quest to speaking glory can be a slow rot, with many obstacles that can knock the best speakers out of the game. If you're serious about growing your speaking business, the seasoned pros at ImpactEleven can help, from crafting your ideal positioning to optimizing your marketing effectiveness, to perfecting your expertise and stage skills. As the only speaker training and development community run by current high level speakers at the top of the field, they'll boost your probability of success and help you get there faster. That's why nearly every major speaker bureau endorses and actively participates in ImpactEleven. The ImpactEleven community provides you unparalleled access to the people, relationships, coaching and accountability that compresses your time to success.

To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's impacteleven.com/connect.

Josh Linkner:

Well, I do too, because it's not only showing that you're going to be a good partner, you're investing in the relationship, but it's also signifying that you already have demand or else you wouldn't be bringing them a deal in the first place. So I think it's a great strategy, I advise it too.

I want to chat a little bit about rejection. You were talking about patience, but I think tenacity is another big part of it, resilience. And a lot of times, when newer speakers see someone who has really broken through, they think, "Oh, they were swept... A limousine showed up at their house and everything was rosy and they never had any setbacks." There's speakers way more successful than me, but would you mind just sharing this notion, 'cause I just think it's important for people to see that it's not always easy. The first time we met, I think I came into your office, and you told me later you walked out and you were like, "Eh, really? I don't see it." Could you maybe elaborate on that? Because I would love for others to get a sense that you're probably going to get some setbacks and nos, but those eventually can turn into something positive.

Alec Melman:

I think it was our very good mutual friend, Seth Madison, I saw a post on LinkedIn just recently where he was like, "I've been doing this for 10 plus years, and only in the last year do I feel like I've really arrived as a speaker." And he's someone that we look at on the Mount Rushmore of speakers. So even he had that imposter syndrome and that feeling of he hadn't made it yet. So I'm going to tie it into the previous question as well, which is sometimes the speakers we find out about, very often, it comes from the buyers. It's a buyer that we work with who says, "I have this other person and you've got to take a look at them," and we're learning about it through that channel as well.

I want to answer this in a very thoughtful way. You have to know when it's working and when it's not, you have to be willing to change. There's a lot of examples of speakers who start on one topic and then take off on a completely different topic that they weren't even planning on speaking about. You need to adapt, it's not something... There's a couple of speakers out there that can give the same evergreen speech over and over and it does great and they don't change it, but by and large, the best speakers, their messaging is changing on a yearly basis to keep up with the times. If you're a tech speaker and you haven't incorporated General AI and ChatGPT topics into your conversation yet, you're behind. So being adaptable and being patient, that'll answer for those feelings of frustration. If you can hold on long enough, good things happen.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, I think that's right. And again, just to build on the point, knowing that you're going to get some door slammed in your face. As you know, I run a venture firm, and you always see these stories that Apple, 13 venture capital firms said no to Apple and to Google and Cisco. Behind. Of course, this happens to actors and literary figures as well, and certainly to speakers. The notion that you're never going to get a no is unrealistic. The good news in our business is that there's always the next year. If a company has an event in '23, they're going to have another event in '24, and so if you lose one year, maybe you get the next year. But I do think that often, we can take it so personally because we're the product. It's almost like they're not just rejecting your product, they're rejecting you as a human being, and it's hard to get through that. I was wondering, do you have any tidbits of advice on how you've helped coach other speakers through those moments of darkness and rejection?

Alec Melman:

Well, I say if you can survive COVID, you can survive anything, as a speaker's bureau. And so, we all have a lot more, I would say, perspective now. I'm also very blunt with speakers too on first conversations, like, "I don't think this is a product I can sell. I don't think there's a market for this. Or there is a market for this, but it's so crowded that it's going to be such an uphill battle, you should pick a different lane." They don't always want to hear that, and I've often been proven wrong, so you have to take my advice with a grain of salt. Luckily, the market is so vast, as I learned from you, that you need such a tiny fraction of a percent of it to buy in, to have a career, that it's... I don't want to say it's impossible to fail, but there's going to be a market for your services. It may not be as big as you want, but it should be enough to live on and even to thrive on. So just find your people, find your community, and if it's not working, adapt.

Josh Linkner:

Speaking of adapting, how are things changing for you and Gotham these days? I know you mentioned ChatGPT, you're embracing new technology, I'm sure. How is the business evolving, and where do you see it heading in the next 24 months or so?

Alec Melman:

I would put it as we're cautiously optimistic, which is a general position that I take, again, back to this notion of if you can survive COVID, you can survive anything. I used to, in my early years, if we had a major cancellation or a contract dust up, I would lose sleep over it. And now, I say to myself, "Well, it's not COVID, so we'll be okay." I guess I've gotten a little wiser as I've gotten older and have much more perspective on it.

Where it's going, we've talked many times about what's going to disrupt this industry, and a lot of things have come and gone, and I know there's a lot of great companies out there that are trying to do that, that are trying to make it a touchless experience. But even the people who I know that was their business model, once they have an offer in, they're still doing a million touch points, 10 emails, 15 phone calls, to actually see an event to its conclusion. It's never going to be a full self-serve model. I know one of the biggest speaker bureaus out there had, for a while, what they call the direct connect service, a self-service for 15K and under, and eventually they closed it. It wasn't profitable because it still takes so much human effort for that to work. We're in the people business, and so that is going to mean they're going to want to talk to a human at some point in the process, in the sales process. And luckily, we have many talented humans available here at Gotham.

So anyway, back to the question though of where it's going. I imagine the market's going to top out at some point, that the return on investment on the high-end of the market, it's got to start to get questionable at some point. It has been, traditionally speaking, and corporate and business speaking, the highest risk of getting cut. If there's an economic downturn, one of the first things you're going to do is get rid of conferences, events, that's where they're going to look to trim budgets, things like that. So we're always watching for that. But the deeper you can get in with a company, and the deeper you can get in that type of relationship, the more... And another reason why we've signed more exclusives is to make us a bit more recession proof, because if there's an exclusive, the right one's always going to be in demand, even in a down market.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, speaking of that, I think there's another thing that plays in our favor, being the optimist view, in that, with so much remote work, people are craving connection. Where in the past, in a recession, maybe the first thing to go is the conference and the speakers, in the future, I'm not totally sure. It still may be, it still may have a reduction, but the need for human connection now is more prevalent than ever. And so, I'm hopeful, at least I'm optimistic, that they may start to make other cuts, but they say, "Look, our people are working from home, they've got Zoom fatigue. This annual meeting is not just a nice-to-have, it really becomes a crucial part of their culture." And so, that'll be my optimistic view. We'll see what time has to say.

Alec Melman:

Also, on that point about what's changed and what's continued to change is the virtual component. It was, prior to COVID, the redheaded stepchild of the industry, you would do one or two a year. Now, it still represents, I think, 15% of our business. And it's great for larger companies. It is so much more cost-effective to have a virtual event for a company with 15,000 employees than to try and bring them all together. And so, what I've noticed happen is, instead of doing one big event, they're going to do a monthly series. So instead of spending $100,000 on one big name, they'll spend $10,000, 10 times or 12 times, and do that once a month as a virtual lunch-and-learn series.

And that's great for two reasons. One, you're getting more ideas in front of them, they're spreading out their thought leadership. And two, you're getting a lot more diverse ideas and different voices. Obviously, we haven't even gotten into the DEI component and what we've seen companies doing, and every month they're celebrating a different group and they're bringing in speakers to honor that, and that's been both a benefit to our business and, I think, a benefit to the culture.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, completely agree. I want to chat a little bit about other ways to monetize expertise beyond a typical keynote. You, for example, introduced me to Cameo years ago, and I don't do a huge business on it, but there's a little bit of revenue there, which is cool. And so, that's one way to monetize thought leadership and expertise. We're seeing things like you go do an interview and you show up on someone else's podcast as a promotional piece, we've seen brand endorsements. How are you seeing the world of expertise monetization outside of keynotes, or in compliment to keynotes, evolving in the future?

Alec Melman:

I've had a lot of iterations, I've evolved on my philosophy there. I'm currently of the mind, I want to become an expert at this one thing and not be a jack-of-all-trades. And every time that we've played around in the, we're going to try and get our speaker a book deal, we're going to try and get our speaker a branding deal, eventually, we'll get it, but by the time we do, the amount of effort it took, we could have done just as well selling another speech and putting another thing. So it goes back to this idea of, remember I mentioned my triangle of decision-making? Is it profitable? Is it fun? Does it match our long-term vision? And our long-term vision is to be the best speakers agency, or booking agency, I should say, in the world. And until we're the best booking agency in the world, I don't want to take my eye off the prize and start focusing on ancillary activities.

One day, that opportunity may arise, just by the fact of we've been so good at the speaking game, we have the right speaker for a long time, we're in a management or exclusive relationship, and they get noticed by such-and-such production company for a TV show. All right, well, if that opportunity knocks, we'll be ready for it, but I'm not going out of my way and trying to make that materialize.

Josh Linkner:

Great insights, Alec, and I really appreciate your time today and our long-term friendship and partnership. As we wind down our conversation today, there are a lot of speakers listening, there's speakers at all levels that are new to the industry, there's old pros that are trying to continue to evolve, as you point out, and upped their game. What wisdom do you have to share? Any pieces of nuggets of advice for those of us that not are only trying to make money, but really trying to make a difference and create impact from stages around the world. Any Alec-isms that you'd like to share with us?

Alec Melman:

My caveman wisdom, as you say, simple but effective. You have to start from a really honest place with yourself, why do I want to be a speaker? If you dive deep enough into that question, you might be surprised what the answer is. If it's, "I think I can make a lot of money," maybe not a great place to start. If it's, "I can make a lot of impact." Okay, well, let's dive in. How? What is the impact that you're looking to create? And who is your target audience? If you have a message that really you believe can help someone, well then it's not going to be about the money anyway, and the market will follow. You'll give speeches for free because you want to impact lives.

And so, if you're new in your speaking career and you believe that, take as many opportunities as you can, do the free ones, but don't do them for no benefit to you. Your benefit is you're going to get quality video, you're going to get a testimonial, you're going to grow your network of meeting planners, and then you can start to charge, and then you can start to value your time in a different way. But in the beginning, you're going to want to get as much stage time as you can. The more reps you get, the better you're going to get. So I don't know if that's quality advice, but it's advice.

Josh Linkner:

We'll take it. Wishing you and Mike and Sam and the entire Gotham team continued success. It's a pleasure to work with you. I'm happy, it gives me a lot of joy seeing your continued growth and success, and wishing you all the best, and thanks for continuing to play an important leadership role in this beautiful industry. Thanks for being on Mic Drop.

Alec Melman:

Thank you, Josh.

Josh Linkner:

I always appreciate it when someone really knows their stuff, and Alec is one of the true masters of our field. A few of the reflections that I had coming out of our conversation. Number one, I love the take-no-prisoner's way that Alec thinks about trends, like increased anxiety and uncertainty in the world of business. To Alec, they're not problems, they're simply opportunities. Number two, I was also inspired by Alec's optimistic approach to virtual keynotes. He doesn't just see them as a necessary evil in the post-COVID era. Instead, he sees them as a chance to expand, reach and expand revenue for both him and the speakers that he represents. And number three, maybe what stuck out most was how staying focused on booking keynotes for Gotham's clients, even when the temptation is strong to expand into other avenues, actually helps bolster their careers in the long run.

Overall, I think the most impressive thing about Alec is his focus on building high value trust-based relationships, with both his clients and roster of speakers. As a scrappy entrepreneur, he's truly living his vision, even as he adapts to the modern marketplace. Huge thanks to Alec for sitting down with me today on Mic Drop, and I look forward to our next conversation, Alec, hopefully over a good, delicious coffee as we go for a walk through the streets of Brooklyn.

Thanks so much for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share it with your friends, and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit micdroppodcast.com. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Thanks so much for listening, and here's to your next Mic Drop moment.