Mic Drop

The Inside Man (ft. Shawn Hanks)

Episode Summary

This is it— your exclusive look into the secrets and strategies of top bureaus from one of the best in the business. Learn directly from the CEO of Premiere Speakers Bureau about what captures bureaus’ attention, how you can build your network, and much more as we have a look at the industry from a unique and incredibly valuable perspective.

Episode Notes

The Inside Man (ft. Shawn Hanks)

Discover what top bureaus want— from the CEO of a top bureau himself

OPENING QUOTE:

“There are two ways to really capture our attention, or I would say any bureau's attention.”

-Shawn Hanks

GUEST BIO:

Shawn Hanks is one of the most highly respected leaders in the speaking industry as CEO of Premier Speakers Bureau. PSB books thousands of events and touches millions of lives each year. Besides this role, Shawn has also served as president of the International Association of Speaker Bureaus and has seen it all in his 22 years in the business.

Links

[11:46] The Ultimate Partnership

Initiating and maintaining bureau relationships

Among a series of can’t-miss insights, one that stands out is Shawn’s advice to focus not on your relationship with a bureau but your relationship with specific agents. After all, those are the people that can truly make moves on your behalf if they become personally invested and passionate about you and your career. And, of course, pursue relationships with a genuine spirit of connection— not manipulation.

[18:49] Myths and Truths of Speaker Bureaus

Everything you want to know and thought you knew

Josh plays ‘Myth or Truth’ with Shawn and we’re all gifted a rapid-fire airing of some of the most common speaking career questions. Sitting back and letting a bureau make your career happen? Myth. Bureaus are the deciding vote on who gets hired or not? Myth. As is usually the case in life, it’s much more nuanced— and requires more legwork on the part of speakers and other parties.

[20:23] A Diversifying Industry

Goodbye ‘male, pale, and stale’

Shawn and Josh discuss the amazing strides the speaking industry has taken away from a somewhat homogenous lineup of speakers to a much more diverse range of backgrounds, perspectives, cultures, and insights. After all, speaking is about telling stories that transform lives— and diverse backgrounds bring a much greater richness of storytelling and achievement.

[21:40] How to Build a Career that Lasts

Today, tomorrow, ten years later

You can choose one thing to last twenty years— your speaking career, or your speaking topic. Not both. Josh and Shawn agree that if you want to build a lasting career, your message must evolve and grow like the world around you and the people who live in it.

[33:24] For Those at the Beginning

Shawn’s tips for speakers at the start of their career

There are so many valuable insights here that to pack them in, we’re going to have to stick to bullet points.

“If you speak on everything, you speak on nothing.”
Write a book— it won’t just make you look like an expert, it will make you an expert
Get help— a coach, a mentor, a speaker development organization— to develop and guide your career
Invest in yourself early, rather than too late

RESOURCES:

[2:10] Premiere Speakers Bureau
[2:22] International Association of Speakers Bureaus

Follow Shawn:

Follow Josh Linkner:

ABOUT MIC DROP:

Brought to you by eSpeakers, hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it’s starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is produced and presented by eSpeakers; sponsored by 3 Ring Circus.

Learn more at: MicDropPodcast.com

ABOUT THE HOST:

Josh Linkner is a Creative Troublemaker. He believes passionately that all human beings have incredible creative capacity, and he’s on a mission to unlock inventive thinking and creative problem solving to help leaders, individuals, and communities soar.

Josh has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million and is the author of four books including the New York Times Bestsellers, Disciplined Dreaming and The Road to Reinvention. He has invested in and/or mentored over 100 startups and is the Founding Partner of Detroit Venture Partners.

Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.

Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza.

Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.com

ABOUT eSPEAKERS:

When the perfect speaker is in front of the right audience, a kind of magic happens where organizations and individuals improve in substantial, long-term ways. eSpeakers exists to make this happen more often.

eSpeakers is where the speaking industry does business on the web. Speakers, speaker managers, associations, and bureaus use our tools to organize, promote and grow successful businesses. Event organizers think of eSpeakers first when they want to hire speakers for their meetings or events.

The eSpeakers Marketplace technology lets us and our partner directories help meeting professionals all over the world connect directly with speakers for great engagements.

Thousands of successful speakers, trainers, and coaches use eSpeakers to build their businesses and manage their calendars. Thousands of event organizers use our directories every day to find and hire speakers. Our tools are built for speakers, by speakers, to do things that only purpose-built systems can.

Learn more at: eSpeakers.com

Episode Transcription

Shawn Hanks:

There are two ways to really capture our attention, or I would say any bureau's attention.

Josh Linkner:

Welcome to Mic Drop podcast. For professional speakers. We cover the ins and outs of the business, helping you deliver more impact on bigger stages, at higher fees. You'll gain an inside edge through intimate conversations with the world's most successful keynote speakers. Mic Drop is brought to you by eSpeakers. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Get ready for some inspiring Mic Drop moments together.

Josh Linkner:

Today's show is sponsored by 3 Ring Circus, the industry's top training and development program for professional speakers. They've helped hundreds of speakers launch or scale their speaking business, earning tens of millions in speaking fees, landing bureau representation, securing book deals, and rising to the top of the field. If you are looking to take your speaking business to the next level, they'll simply help you get there faster. To learn more and schedule a free 30-minute consultation, visit 3ringcirucus.com/micdrop. That's 3 the number 3ringcircus.com/micdrop.

Josh Linkner:

Mic Drop is produced and presented by eSpeakers. If you want more audiences and organizations to be moved and changed by your message, you owe it to yourself to find out why thousands of top experts use eSpeakers to manage and grow their business. When you use eSpeakers, you'll feel confident about your business. Package yourself up for success and be able to focus on what matters most to you and your business. For more information and a free 30-day trial, visit espeakers.com/micdrop. That's espeakers.com/micdrop.

Josh Linkner:

On today's show, we have one of the most highly respected leaders in our industry. Shawn Hanks is the CEO of Premiere Speakers Bureau, one of the largest bureaus in the world, booking thousands of events and touching millions of lives each year. In addition to leading Premiere, he's also been the president of IASB, the International Association of Speaker Bureaus. In Shawn's 22 years in the business, he's seen it all. And today, he shares a candid look at the business, where it's been, where it is, and where it's going.

Josh Linkner:

Some highlights of my conversation with Shawn include effective approaches to initiating and building relationships with speaker bureaus, and also how not to botch it. He also shares the myths and truths of effectively working with speaker bureaus to boost your speaking business, how the industry is shifting from male, pale, and stale, to a much more diverse tapestry, providing an ideal opportunity for female speakers, speakers of color, and other diverse voices. Shawn also reflects on speaker staying power, how to stay relevant and enjoy longevity in the speaking business, along with some specific recommendations for speakers early on in their career.

Josh Linkner:

My good friend, Shawn Hanks, welcome to Mic Drop.

Shawn Hanks:

Josh Linkner, great to see you, man.

Josh Linkner:

So I've been so excited for our conversation. I really wanted to dig in. So for those that don't know, I obviously gave you an introduction, but CEO of Premiere Speakers Bureau, one of the largest, most successful, most highest integrity bureaus in the planet. And I know you've been there for a couple decades, and you're leading the ship. Maybe just give us a quick background on Premiere, and then I'd also love to hear a little bit your personal background as well.

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah, sure. Well, Josh, this is always fun for me, man. It's great to see you, and I appreciate you having me on here for this conversation.

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah, Premiere was founded in 1994, and we're in what used to be a small [inaudible 00:03:57] community outside of Nashville, Tennessee, Franklin. It's no longer small, but it's grown up. We've grown with it. And Premiere was founded really to target assisting nonprofit organizations in securing their speakers, largely fundraising event, those types of things. We've grown. That's still about 10% of our business. We love that. We're passionate about it, but the large bulk of... Our highest watermark in event totals was a couple years ago, pre COVID. We all know that's changed things, was about 2000 events, and I'd say 90% of those were in the corporate space. So we're privileged to work with just about every company you can imagine and name, to understand their needs. We have nine agents on our team. And Josh, as you know, their job every day is to talk to an event partner and say, "What's the need?" Assess that need, and suggest great speakers to solve a problem.

Josh Linkner:

So when you think about the industry, there are different types of bureaus. You're on the larger size in terms of staff and volume. There's obviously one person bureaus and everyone between, but I wanted the dive in. So some speaker bureaus are, like SpeakInc, for example, are non-exclusive bureaus. They don't represent any exclusive talent. Some folks like the Harry Walker Agency or Washington Speakers Bureau. The majority of their revenue comes from exclusive speakers. And to my knowledge, you're in the middle. Could you explain the differences between an exclusive and non-exclusive bureau and how you think about it as you continue to grow Premiere?

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah, sure. I'm very active in our association, International Association of Speakers Bureaus, and we're a relatively small association. Competitors is a strong word. We're friendly competitors. So we all get in a room a couple times a year and have a lot of laughs and talk through the intricacies of representation and what it looks like. And you're right, you hit the nail of the head. There's so many iterations or versions of speakers bureaus, some that are one or two people shops, literally working from the kitchen table. And then, larger Harry Walker, Washington Speakers Bureau, Keppler, and others that are really on the other end of that spectrum.

Shawn Hanks:

But we are what I call... You defined it correctly. On each end of the representation spectrum, you've got exclusives and then non-exclusive. SpeakInc, I've got some great friends that are there, they're completely non-exclusive. And then Harry Walker, as you mentioned, only works with exclusive.

Shawn Hanks:

I've always felt like the most valuable element for us and really for our clients is to be in between. So hybrid is the word that I use, and it's the standard inside of our industry conversations. And Premiere has about 70 exclusive speakers, meaning if you went to college with them, if you hit them up on Twitter, if you go through a friend from a local organization, all roads are going to come back to Premiere. It's going to end up in one of our inboxes at some point. And that allows that speaker to really just focus on being amazing at their craft. I tell our exclusives that often. We do all of the background work. We literally do all their travel, all the advance. We handle all the accounting, collections, all of that work. So all they have to do is be prepped and ready to step on the stage and crush it.

Shawn Hanks:

That doesn't mean that non-exclusives, we have a lot of those great relationships, those speakers are equally as talented, but you can work directly with those or through other bureaus in the non-exclusive model.

Shawn Hanks:

And Premiere sits right in the middle. I haven't looked at the report this morning, but the bulk of our... Over the last 10 years, we are just about in the middle. It bounces back and forth 40/60, 45/55, but we're usually... Out that best year of 2000 events, about 1000 of those are events that we've booked for our exclusive speakers, and then about 1000 of those are events we've booked for the non-exclusive.

Shawn Hanks:

And the exclusive really organically happen, most often. Every company is defined by the types of clients they serve. And over time, it attracts certain types of speakers. And we see them and say, "Hey, we know we've got a great client base for the content you deliver," and we can put them in front of that volume of clients and really grow their business, sometimes almost exponentially. So there does need to be a real strategic relationship, and that's not something we enter into lightly, an exclusive relationship. But when it works, it works really well for the speaker, for us, and then also, ultimately for the clients who we have a real deep understanding of what they're looking for and what they want to accomplish with their event.

Josh Linkner:

My experience with bureaus and certainly with you guys, is that if you're a brand new speaker you've never delivered a professional speech, or you're very, very early, bureaus may not be the best starting point because you have to get a little bit of momentum. I feel that bureaus, once there's some momentum, are good at amplifying momentum and expanding momentum, but you have to get a little bit of momentum.

Josh Linkner:

But that being said, imagine that there's someone listening right now, and they're doing 20 to 30 dates a year, they're on the ascent, their fee is increasing, they're creating great feedback, and they're having that consideration. Should I stay independent? Should I have a speaker manager? Should I go exclusive with a particular bureau? What you just described as really enticing. I just worry about my speaking. You go out there and do the sales and the collections and all the contracting and logistics. Awesome. Could you maybe just walk us through the pros and cons of a speaker like I just described, on the ascent, choosing exclusive versus independent versus being managed?

Shawn Hanks:

Sure. And it's a great question of one that anytime I'm having a meal or drink with a friend as a speaker, that ultimately is one of the conversation points. Because that's a big... I see that, in each of those steps really is the growth and maturation of a speaker's career. Not that exclusive is the ultimate end goal. There are a ton of great speakers, you and our mutual friends [inaudible 00:10:00] so many are not exclusive with a bureau, have amazing bureau relationships. I think ultimately, that to work that question backwards, whatever you choose to do with the bureau or not do, just making certain those are high integrity relationships and it's mutually beneficial for you and the bureau. And I think a reputable bureau would want that same thing.

Shawn Hanks:

But I often use the example of a CPA or an attorney. You don't need those things when you're fresh out of college and scrapping to get your first job. Those are services that you pay for as your career grows and you have assets and you need a money manager at some point. I think of a bureau at the same. We provide services to professional speakers. When you're just starting out, and you are hustling, looking for the next event, you don't need to purchase of services from a bureau. And frankly, a bureau, their time wouldn't be spent invested well, unless it's a unique strategic relationship, pouring into that because there's no return for them. Ultimately, they're looking for opportunity for profit and growth.

Shawn Hanks:

Over time, as you start to build that book of business, I think for every speaker it's different, but looking around and seeing which bureaus... If you're in a non-exclusive, let's say you've bumped into one or two bureaus... What I hear often from speakers is they'll bump into a bureau. A bureau will bring them a date because a client will have asked about them. They'll just really enjoy that relationship. That's often... Dating's probably the wrong analogy, but it feels a little bit like that at times. That just organically grows.

Shawn Hanks:

I always say to speakers, whether you have a non-exclusive or an exclusive relationship with a bureau, you really never have that with a bureau. You have that with individual agents. So we have, I mentioned, nine agents on our team. Brian Lord has been here for 22 years, and our industry knows him and has a lot of respect for him. There are certain speakers that they've got Brian's cell, and they call and bounce ideas off of him, exclusive or non-exclusive. That's a friendship and a relationship that's valuable in both directions.

Shawn Hanks:

But really seeking out those strategic, personal relationships with individual agents, because we do a weekly agent meeting. And if Brian's passionate about a speaker, when there's a conversation about a particular topic, Brian will say, "Hey, just a heads up, this speaker's great. Don't forget about them." Inside of our building, that voice means a lot. So he's then selling a speaker inside of our building for our agents to go and sell that speaker outside of our building.

Shawn Hanks:

So that is, whether it ultimately is exclusive or non-exclusive, pursuing those relationships, and not in a manipulative way, relationships is how the world works, relating specifically to individual agents. And then over time, if you see a bureau that there's just a lot of synergies there, and you say, "Man, the dates they bring me just really fill my bucket. It's exactly what I want to do." Exploring an exclusive relationship, obviously that's a two-way street. The bureau has to see the value, and the speaker. But yeah, there's a lot of paths there, but it ultimately seems to work itself out if you pursue it in the right way.

Josh Linkner:

Love it. So a lot of speakers that are listening now want to initiate new relationships with new bureaus. Maybe they are being booked by a couple other bureaus. Let's say they're really interested in connecting with the good folks at Premiere. What have you seen, Shawn, that is an effective approach to initiate a relationship with a bureau and or an agent, and what are some ineffective approaches that you've seen for people trying to get started?

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah, well, to start with the negative one first, and you and I have had some laughs over this. And I never fault a speaker or anyone who's building on hustle. We all started there at some point, but the blast approach of mailing what I would call EPK, that's a little bit of an old term at this point, but just blasting away and sending books and unsolicited materials, just to be very upfront, invest your money differently. If you're going to send a book, reach out and try to build a relationship with an agent first, to say, "Hey, give me 10 minutes, and let me send you a book." Those types of things. So that blasting approach of just mailing, mailing, mailing, it's a waste of money. And I just encourage speakers to invest their money elsewhere.

Shawn Hanks:

And if you come to Premiere's website, if you call our office, whatever it is, our starting position is we're not accepting new speakers. That's not because we're too important to be talked to. We literally could have an employee whose only job was vetting new speaker information. We try to be standoffish, really out of respect to the speaker community because we can't vet... Even with all that standoffishness is probably a better term than that, but I probably get three or four unsolicited packets a day, easy three or four emails, probably one or two phone calls a day. So just imagine vetting all of that stuff. And my goal is to be respectful of people in their hustle, but there's just no way to really vet that. So that's the negative side first.

Shawn Hanks:

The positive side, and I say this often, there are two ways to really capture our attention, or I would say any Bureau's attention. One, another speaker that I respect recommend a speaker to me. A great example is we've got a great speaker, John [Acough 00:15:49], who's a mutual friend. John, a year or two ago, told me, he said, "There's this guy named Ryan [Leek 00:15:53], who he's going to take over the world. He's amazing." I said, "Great. I'll log that, I'll watch one of his videos."

Shawn Hanks:

Well, the next step in that, so a speaker recommendation, or we start to lose business. So our agents are on the phone, they're pitching speakers, and the client says, "Hey, thanks for this. That's great. We'll work with you on the next event, but I stumbled on this one guy, and I'm going to book him." Well, that's lost business or opportunity for us. That was Ryan. A couple times, the clients that Premiere works with, we know that they come to us, they consider us a resource, said, "Hey man, this guy, Ryan, my VP saw him. I'm just going to book him." So we finally reached out to Ryan and said, "Hey, it feels like there's a lot of great connection here."

Shawn Hanks:

So that's one example of a speaker that I respect, a Josh Linkner, a Pete, somebody says, "Hey, check this person out." That has huge value. But then also, and those don't have to be combined. Sometimes it's just, I'll reach out and say, "Hey, Josh told me that he spoke last Tuesday, you followed him, and you crushed it. That means something." But then also losing business to a speaker, especially to specific types of clients that we know and understand, and we know what they want. We go, "Well, we can put that," to use your term earlier, "we can magnify that." We can put that on steroids, essentially, and put them in front of 1000 types of that type of client. So we'll seek that speaker out and establish a non-exclusive relationship first, make sure we can produce for them. And then if it just really works, we'd say, "Hey, let's talk about an exclusive relationship because it just makes a lot of sense."

Josh Linkner:

Becoming a keynote speaker is an amazing profession. The top performers earn millions in annual income, while driving massive impact on audiences around the world. But the quest to speaking glory can be a slow route with many obstacles that can knock even the best speakers out of the game. If you are serious about growing your speaking business, the seasoned pros at 3 Ring Circus, they can help. From optimizing your marketing and business efforts, to crafting your ideal positioning, to perfecting your expertise and stage skills, 3 Ring Circus is the only speaker training and development program run by current high level speakers at the top of their field. That's why the major bureaus like Washington Speakers Bureau, Premiere Speakers, SpeakInc, Executive Speakers, Harry Walker Agency, Keppler, Gotham Artists, and GDA all endorse and participate in 3 Ring Circus.

Josh Linkner:

From interactive boot camps to one on one coaching, 3 Ring Circus will help you reach your full potential in the speaking biz, and they'll get there faster. For a free 30-minute consultation, visit 3ringcircus.com/micdrop. That's 3ringcircus.com/micdrop.

Josh Linkner:

So I thought we'd have a fun time, Shawn, and play a quick game. Let's play a game called myth or truth. I'll say an idea about bureau speakers, whatever, and you tell me if it's a myth or truth, and just give me a quick expansion, a couple sentences to tell me why it's either a myth or a truth.

Shawn Hanks:

Sounds good.

Josh Linkner:

So our game show begins. Let's do this. Okay. First one is once I'm listed on a bureau website, I can just sit back and the bookings will happen.

Shawn Hanks:

Myth. That's like listing a product on Amazon and expecting to sell out of it tomorrow. Doesn't happen.

Josh Linkner:

Amazing. Okay, next one. Myth or truth, bureaus are a decider on who gets hired or not.

Shawn Hanks:

Myth. They have a lot of sway because clients trust their opinion. We don't sell speakers. We sell consultancy and advice and risk mitigation to the event planner. So we can put a very strong push forward, but there's always a buyer on the other side, and often many buyers. It's not one person. It can be three or four people, and then a VP up to food chain who isn't involved with the process, last second says, "What about this person?" And that's often how the decision is made.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah. Just to build on that, if you think about the actor model, you could have a talent agent that gets you on audition, but you still have to win the audition. You still have to get the part. And the person who's the casting director is different than your talent agents. So my only point is if you have a bureau that's excited about you, doesn't mean that... You can't call them like, "Why aren't I getting booked?" That's not the bureau's ultimate decision to make. They could put you forward, but okay. Good.

Josh Linkner:

Myth or truth. White, middle-aged, male speakers these days make more money than people of diversity of any kind.

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah. That's a myth at this point. People would argue that was a truth in the past, and that's a different conversation to have. But Josh, right now, and I love that this is what the market wants, and we just like any other company, especially in representation, our job is to provide the client what they're looking for based on the parameters they're asking. And a lot of our clients are saying... A friend of ours, I think it's Mike Staver, who was president of NSA in the past, his term was male, pale, and stale. I like it because it rhymes, but he's like, hey, for years for decades, that's been the predominant person on a stage, and the industry wants something different. I love it. It's a righting of the ship, but those diversity, different elements, those are buying points right now, to put it plainly. And that's an asset to many speakers.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah. By the way, just a comment on that. Totally agree. Our industry has been male, pale, and stale, and I'm delighted to see that there's a significant push for diversity, even if it negatively affects my own speaking business, 100% it's the right thing to do for our industry. I completely support it.

Josh Linkner:

Okay. Myth or truth. So a speaker who used to get great applause and great laughs and everything, they haven't changed their speech much over the last two decades, and their business is continuing to soar. Myth or truth?

Shawn Hanks:

Well, that's got to be a myth. And someone will counter that and say, "Well, here's an example of it being a truth," and I won't be able to argue that because there are some speakers out there who have used maybe even the same video, Josh, for the last decades, and it's just work for them. I will never argue against what works, but I can tell you the vast majority of speakers, man, there's a... The same amount of hustle that Josh Linkner used to get your first gig, Josh Linkner uses to get the next gig. You invest time, energy, and you got a great team now that helps you with that. You also get your hands dirty with it. The hustle can't stop. Keep building that content because the one person you can name that has the same content from 20 years ago, I can name you 99 who have done it differently, and that's the better model. Keep building that content.

Josh Linkner:

Staying relevant, staying in the zeitgeist, having fresh, new things to say. 100% percent agree.

Josh Linkner:

Okay, good. Myth or truth. This is good advice. I just did an engagement for Premiere Speakers Bureau. Someone in the audience came up to me and gave me their business card, a different company though. I called them, and they offered me a speech. And Premiere really didn't have anything to do with it. They don't even know that customer. So I can just take that outside, do that direct as opposed to looping my good friends back in at Premiere. Is that good advice or is that [crosstalk 00:23:21]

Shawn Hanks:

Josh, I feel like you just lobbed a softball up. I get to hit it out of the park. I hope I don't swing and miss. Josh, I'm a broken record. I only have a couple good ideas, but the strength of relationships... We can all point to people and say, Hey, they did it, and they stepped on people on the way up," but the vast majority... And this is just deep down, people feel this. Treating people well is the way to build your business over time, the right way to handle spinoff, all those things.

Shawn Hanks:

And I don't say right from a moral perspective. I do think that is the right thing to do from the right perspective, the right in this case being defined as the best way to build your business, send that spin back. It's going to cost you a commission, obviously. That is going to be the best money you've ever spent.

Shawn Hanks:

That sales meeting I mentioned earlier, when our agent goes in and says to the other eight agents, "Hey guys, I had a spin that I didn't even know about. I never would have." And trust me, this gets said in every sales room for every bureau around the country, around the globe. That spin came back to me, in your case, Josh or Jordan called and said, "Hey, good news. I'm spinning this back over to you." That's money and time well-invested from the speaker's perspective. And just understand that you're buying and building a relationship at that point, and it's not about the next transaction for sure.

Shawn Hanks:

And just to add one bit of flavor to that, the commission matters. We are in a business, ultimately, but the relationship with the client is much more valuable from the bureau's perspective. So you speak, in your example, you speak at company X. Company Y books you as spinoff. The bureau wants to be involved in that because company Y is going to book speakers for the next 10, 15 years. They may only book Josh Linkner one time, but you and Jordan are great to spin that back to us. They're still going to book you. You don't lose anything in the deal, but the bureau then has a relationship for a decade or more to come. So seeing that value is important from a speaker perspective.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah. And then the last one in our little game, I'll say, is myth or truth. People in bureaus can either really promote somewhat up high because they're doing great work and being a good partner. Or I hate to say the word blackball, because I know no one would use that word internally, but effectively choose not to work with a particular speaker at all, based on their behaviors or the way that they engaged.

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah. Well, I'm trying to think of the framing of the question, Josh. That's the truth. Blackballing is the wrong term. I just always remind people that agents are human, and humans, when they touch a stove once and get burned, they probably, if they have a brain, most of them do, they don't touch the stove again. If you take your car to a mechanic and get ripped off, I bet you don't take your car back to that mechanic, unless you're a glutton for punishment.

Shawn Hanks:

A good experience creates another good experience. A great experience probably creates a few more great experiences. So the counter side to that is a negative experience or learning down the road, oh, that speaker got some type of huge spin opportunity and I knew nothing about it, or there's 1000 iterations of that, but just ultimately seeing it as truly a two-way street, a relationship.

Shawn Hanks:

And I hope that is returned in kind from the bureau as well. I hope this isn't received as speakers should do everything to please a bureau. No, it should be both sides. Bureaus need to work hard to keep and build good relationships, but the speakers hopefully will see the value in those relationships.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah. Perfectly said. Cool. Well, switching gears a little bit off of our game show-

Shawn Hanks:

What did I win, Josh?

Josh Linkner:

Oh, Mr. Shawn Hanks, congratulations. You win a bottle of cold ice water.

Shawn Hanks:

I'll take it.

Josh Linkner:

Nothing better. The Mic Drop prize of the day. So, my question to you is around staying power. So we talked about what happens with someone starting with a bureau or in the industry. But I know that you've seen over your career, speakers that flash up real bright, and then crash down, and they're gone in a year or two. And I know that you've also seen the journey men and journey women that have endured the ups and downs of the industry, that have evolved, have had the staying power and sustainability over time.

Josh Linkner:

What advice would you give to the speaker who's trying to build their business, not just for the grab the coin quick and get out, but really wants to be here for 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years in the business. What do you recommend for people to think about, as it relates to sustainability and staying power?

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah, Josh, that is such a burning or important question, I think, in the speaker community. And it's really almost adjacent to the bureau community, but speakers often, from the chair that I sit in, it ultimately comes down to are you a professional speaker, or you not a professional speaker? We all can tell the stories of I was watching the news and something happened, and it was just pivotal, the whole world watched it. That person who's involved in that will get a ton of speaking requests. It's just the way our world works. Everybody wants them to show up on their stage, tell their story. They want to see how tall they are, what they look like in person. Can they share the story well, all that stuff.

Shawn Hanks:

That's the start of a speaking career. That's not a speaking career. The professional speaker builds a machine underneath them. And I use that, that's not a pejorative term. That's a positive thing. They build a machine under them that generates more activity over time. And it's not just hoping that people want to continue to hear that story. That's the celebrity type of speaker.

Shawn Hanks:

The bulk of our industry, though, is made up of content speakers. Someone who was passionate about a topic, wrote a book about it, or just said, "I got to communicate this idea," And just slowly, incrementally built something over time. But even those, if somebody writes a New York Times' best selling book, they're thrust into a speaking career, but are they a professional speaker? The speakers who really look at it from a viewpoint of, to use your example, I want this to be a decade or two decades' career for me, and not man, I hope people keep going to my website and asking me to speak. If you're doing that, that will end. I can count on maybe one hand the number of speakers who are still telling the same story from 20 years ago. And I promise you, even those speakers who are real story centric from just a pivotal moment in our history, they've managed to find ways to make the story relevant.

Shawn Hanks:

So another one we're talking about, this happened on that day, you remember it, it's the leadership that occurred on that day. Here are the lessons we can take from it. But building the system over time, machine underneath, whether that's having staff in your office, those are all important decisions to make. And they're not small ones. We're talking about overhead at that point.

Shawn Hanks:

But understanding that the speaking on stage is really just part of it. That's almost the icing on the cake. You love to speak, Josh. You're great at it. And when you're on stage, you're in your spot, man, you're crushing it. But you know there's so much stuff that goes on behind it to get you there. The pre event calls, texting a client from Starbucks the morning of to let them know that you're in town, all these little things that are... Hitting event planner pain points that... Speaking on stage, if you're a professional speaker and you're getting, made up number, 10 grand to speak, you better be great on stage. That's what they're expecting you to do.

Shawn Hanks:

It's all the other stuff that's going to either to build a speaking career, or you're going to have a great six month, 12 month run, and then the Twitter request and all these hit ups are going to start to dwindle, and you're going to panic, thinking, "Well, what do I do next? Because I can only be in the world's eye one day in a lifetime moment." You have to build the machine underneath you to continue to generate new content, and what's next, and look for what's next and not just hope it finds you.

Josh Linkner:

Yeah, it's so true. When I've seen speakers before that are dynamite on stage, they make it look easy. But like things in sports or in Broadway, if something looks easy, it probably was hard to get there. And what that looks like behind the scenes isn't just you show up, drop in for 20 minutes and give a terrific talk. It's years of research on your body of work. It's practicing, it's studying your craft, it's building your back office, it's generating demand. So all the things that go underneath the surface and don't get noticed allows Lady Gaga to make it look easy on stage. Yeah, there's a whole lot of work that goes to become Lady Gaga, and same thing with speakers.

Josh Linkner:

And my sincere hope, and one of the reasons we're doing this podcast, is to elevate the professionalism of the industry. Anybody can grab a PowerPoint and a mic and call themselves a speaker. But to me, it's real honor to be on stage. And for those that treat it seriously, those that understand that's an opportunity to create influence and change the world, and don't look down their nose at it or mail it in, but really make this a profession, those are the ones that I respect the most. And I know that a lot of people listening right now are feeling the same way.

Josh Linkner:

So with that in mind, Shawn, what recommendations do you have for speakers that are earlier in their career, that are either new to the industry? Maybe they were a person of substance, and they... We, for example, work with astronauts and four star generals and people that sold their business for a billion dollars and such. So someone of substance that's new to the industry, or someone that's getting going. They've got a little bit of momentum, 10, 15, 20 dates a year, looking to scale their practice. What advice do you have for folks in that category on how they can really launch and scale their business?

Shawn Hanks:

Yeah. And probably we could have an hour-long conversation about that, but a couple of quick hit things. We say often internally at Premiere, if you speak on everything, you speak on nothing. Event planners, they are looking for... I mentioned earlier, risk mitigation, first of all. That's part of the reason they work with bureaus, so this is all from a bureau perspective. They know that we will not pitch them a speaker who's not a fantastic speaker who has all the great assets, a great video, intro, all the tools they need to put a speaker on stage. We are somewhat of a filter for that.

Shawn Hanks:

But for that speaker who's maybe working with a bureau or not, you really have to know what you speak on. That sounds very elementary, but there's also a hustle factor. And I mentioned earlier, I respect that, but saying to anyone, "Oh man, just tell me what to speak on, and I'll speak." Nope. That's not how this industry works. You need to be an expert on something.

Shawn Hanks:

And one way to be an expert on it is to write a book on it. And I don't say that lightly because I have so many friends who have written books, and they've said having and raising a child was easier than this. It's not easy. It's really difficult. But even starting the format, so as you describe someone who's just really starting out, I'm not saying write a book tomorrow, but you got to have that thing in your head that says, "When I write a book, this will be it." This is the thing, the stake in the ground. It's who I am. It's my content. It's my byline. We, in our system, actually have a byline, where if you go and look at Josh Linkner's page, it'll tell you know why you should know Josh Linkner is.

Shawn Hanks:

So really clarifying what that thing is. And often I have found, especially speakers who are big thinkers and creators, they need someone else to come alongside them and help them do that. That's not weakness. You can build a speaking career on your own with a lot of hustle, or you can bring in, as I mentioned earlier, you don't need a CPA until you got money. You don't need an attorney until you have legal companies to build, all these things, corporation. Look around and say, all right, I need a service to help me refine this, 3 Ring Circus. And Josh, don't blush. I really am passionate about what 3 Ring Circus does because you guys are creating products for bureaus to put in the market. But seek out 3 Ring Circus or someone who can coach you through, okay, you created a video. Let me watch it with independent eyes. This isn't as good as you think it this. Or maybe it's great. Maybe it's better than you think it is. But having someone to help, who has a proven process.

Shawn Hanks:

There's a lot of that backend stuff that I mentioned, building the machine underneath you. Don't recreate the wheel. Go find a mentor or find another speaker who's done it. Or go invest a weekend and let someone else have made all the mistakes for you. And I heard somebody say once, the only thing better than learning from your mistakes is learning from somebody else's mistakes. So don't invest your time making mistakes, invest your time learning from someone else's. Take a lot of notes. And I've seen that put people's career turbo mode because they didn't have to sit for a year and go, "Oh man, my website should have looked like this a year ago." No, invest some time and go get coached on them.

Josh Linkner:

Excellent advice. Excellent advice. So I wanted to shift a little bit about you personally and then also the future, but why do you do this, Shawn? I know you've been in the industry a long time, but you're a very smart, talented guy. You could thrive in any industry, I believe, that you pursued. What is it about the world of speaking? It's not just because you are there. Again, you could you about anything. What draws you? Why is your heart so deep into this? Why have you taken a leadership role across the association? What's moving you to stay connected and relevant in the world of professional speaking?

Shawn Hanks:

Well, I would say first of all, I have four kids. One of them just went to college, Josh. So that's definitely a motivating factor. You as a parent know. No, kidding aside. I really do see the value in expert... A group of people assembling. And I like to say... When COVID hit, we were all terrified of, first of all, just COVID. But then as we started to assemble, so many of us would get on these dark and gloomy Zooms, like is our industry going to make it? Are people ever going to assemble and have someone get on a stage and talk to them again?

Shawn Hanks:

I was always come comforted with the notion that we didn't make this up. Humans have been doing this for a very long time, and they gathered around a campfire and someone told a story, and that made a difference. Even before we were a written culture, people were telling stories and moving other people to do things. I've always been passionate about that thing.

Shawn Hanks:

When a company says, "We have to change the direction of the ship, something's off," and they do a ton of research, and we get to be involved in it or anyone's involved in it. And they say, "If we bring this person in, they're going to give us the tools to change the course of our company." That sounds a little bit pie in the sky, but it's not. Countless... I have a Google Doc of probably 1000 or more... I call them Premiere praises, but it's usually people emailing me after an event when I follow up with them, and they say, "Man, this speaker genuinely gave us language to change something in our company that's impacting a company of 500 people or 1000 people."

Shawn Hanks:

Josh, I can't get on a Southwest flight and go talk to 500 or 1000 people and try to give them any type of, not that I would even have sage advice for them. But the fact that we get to be involved in truly impacting... Ultimately, I did the math once. I think it was 2.1 million people in one calendar year, based off of the data we had, attendance numbers extrapolated over all the events. Impacted two million people. Now, did every one of them dramatically changed their life? No, but some of them did. And companies were changed, and people were employed. And that trickles down and impacts culture in a way.

Shawn Hanks:

And it's a sneaky way that I and all of our team, there's 26 of us, get to impact culture in ways that we couldn't... It truly grows our influence exponentially. We wouldn't be able to impact people in that way. So that's a long way to say it just gives us a way to impact and change the world in a small way. But that's the best way to start.

Josh Linkner:

I couldn't agree more. We say that it's the speaking industry, speaking is the delivery mechanism, but it's really more like we're in the aha industry, where you're helping people see the world a little different. We're helping them get this nugget that they can make a positive impact in their lives, both personally and professionally. So I couldn't agree more. And I can tell that you and the whole Premiere team is just deeply passionate about positively affecting the world, which is awesome.

Josh Linkner:

Shawn, last question for you. You've been at this a while, you know the industry cold. I want you to grab your crystal ball. So you got your crystal ball, you polish that baby off, and we're looking out 10 years from now. We are lots of technology changes, the world's changed, geopolitical, everything else has changed. What's different about the world of professional speaking when you and I are sitting down having a coffee 10 years from today?

Shawn Hanks:

That's a great question, Josh. My crystal ball I left at home, so I'll have to just shoot from the hip. I'm also going to look up some lottery numbers, by the way, for those four kids that I mentioned have to go to college.

Shawn Hanks:

I'll start with this. I started at Premiere on October 16th, 2000. So that was 22 years ago. Not to date this conversation, but it's been a while. I remember the first interactions that I had with other bureaus, there was this real dire, gloomy conversation about have you heard about the internet and how it's just going to devastate speakers bureaus? If I'm honest, the first few months I thought, "Well, the math seems to work out. If I can Google Josh Linkner and just go book him, why would I use a bureau?" And then the more I... And by the way, I started, I didn't know what a speakers bureau was. I Googled it or whatever was the search term of the day, Alta Vista, whatever it was, Ask Jeeves, what's a speaker's bureau?

Shawn Hanks:

I realized the internet is a tool. But tools, we discovered fire and then we chiseled granite into, or whatever we used, into an ax, a tool can be used for good or bad. So all that to say 22 years ago, the death of the speakers bureau was predicted. And those that said, "Well, why don't we use it to help us versus hurt us?" Oh, okay. Well, if I'm honest, Josh, that's been part of the reason Premiere's been so blessed. We really leaned into technology, and our clients saw that and go, "This is the easier. I still get the consultancy and value of your expertise, still get my speaker. It doesn't cost me any more. The speaker doesn't do anything differently. It's just I get an extra layer of, essentially, insurance."

Shawn Hanks:

So that as a history example, history lesson, to say there's so many of those iterations, different things that have come along. At some point, people said, "Well, social media. I'll just tweet at Josh and say, 'Hey, come speak at my event.'" Okay. Well, that's another version of direct contact. That's not bad. Let's figure out how do we utilize that to our advantage.

Shawn Hanks:

So all of that as, man, the future, trying to guess it, people have lost a lot of money and opportunity doing that. One thing I am confident, and I say this in our walls all the time, people will always want an expert, someone to come challenge, motivate, and inspire them. That's not going to of change. Like I said, it's been happening for a very, very long time. It will continue to happen.

Shawn Hanks:

How that happens, that's always... You and I are doing this from separate states right now, by staring in the webcams. That wasn't really a thing three years ago. It would happen if you had do it, but we probably booked a couple of virtual events a year, and they were always stop gaps because somebody was snowed in at the Denver airport. Now it's a thing.

Shawn Hanks:

But the delivery mechanism is just part of the transaction. That's just now a negotiating point. Hey, if they're stuck at Denver airport, they will do it by Zoom. But ultimately, people want that experience of come and inspire and challenge us, so that's not going away. It's just the mechanism of how that's delivered. And whether that's next year or 10 years, that's going to change on some level, holograms or whatever it is. But ultimately, it still involves the transaction of we have a need, we've got to communicate an important idea to our team. We want to change culture, change movement, whatever it is. This person is great at this. Let's marry those two, change the direction of the ship. That thing's going to happen for a very, very long time to come well.

Josh Linkner:

Well, great insights. And Shawn, thank you not only for your time today, but your leadership in our industry. I do sincerely hope and believe we'll be drinking together, coffee or something else, 10 years out. And you're right, the world will continue to evolve. The mechanisms will continue to grow, but this core idea of sharing human connection and inspiration, wrapped in an expert message, I agree with you, will continue to sustain. So thanks, brother. I appreciate your time, and wishing you and the whole team at Premiere all the best.

Shawn Hanks:

Thank you, Josh. Appreciate it, buddy.

Josh Linkner:

Part CEO, part philosopher, part change agent. I just loved my conversation with Shawn. A few key points really jumped out at me. Number one, Shawn encourages us to remain hungry and to continue to create new content and new insights. Sustainable success in our business isn't a destination, it's an ongoing process.

Josh Linkner:

Number two, even in a tech forward world, relationships are the lifeblood of success. Building mutual and trust-based relationships with our bureau partners is the best way to scale and win over time.

Josh Linkner:

And number three, I just love how Shawn put it. If you speak on everything, you speak on nothing. We have to have deep expertise and a concise point of view to cut through the clutter and land with bureaus, buyers, and audiences alike. We're not only lucky to have Shawn on Mic Drop, we're lucky to have someone with purpose, integrity, and thoughtfulness as one of the most impactful leaders in our field. Here's to wishing him and you continued momentum and success.

Josh Linkner:

Thanks for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share with your friends, and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit micdroppodcast.com. Mic Drop is produced and presented by eSpeakers, and a big thanks to our sponsor, 3 Ring Circus. I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Thanks for listening, and here's to your mic drop moment.