Mic Drop

The Soulful Giant (ft. Justin Wren)

Episode Summary

Episode Notes

The Soulful Giant (ft. Justin Wren)

Fighter-turned-lover Justin Wren on what it means to fight for a greater purpose

OPENING QUOTE:

“And so now, whenever I've gotten into a fight and the cage door locks, I'm looking this guy in the eyes and I know that I know, but I also believe that I know he knows, that I have stronger reasons than he does, so I can take him to deeper waters.”

-Justin Wren

GUEST BIO:

Justin Wren knows what it's like to feel like the world is against you. Fueled by anger resulting from persistent bullying, Justin pursued wrestling in high school, where he became a 10x state champion, 5x all-American, and 2x national champion. This propelled his dream of becoming a UFC fighter into reality, becoming a champion and an elite athlete. But the pain from his childhood didn't dissipate, and Justin fell into a spiral of depression and addiction that led him on a path toward destruction. In trying to escape this spiral, Justin visited the rainforest in the Democratic Republic of the Congo where he came across the Mbuti Pygmies, a group of people persecuted by neighboring tribes and forced into slavery.

On one of his trips, he stayed for a year, living among them and sharing the culture of what he calls "the most bullied people on earth." His encounter with the pygmies left him wondering who was there to help them. And in that moment, Justin stepped out of the cage and founded the nonprofit organization Fight for the Forgotten. He's become a celebrated keynote speaker, ascending this new mountain with the same discipline and passion that got him to the top of professional sports.

Links:

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[4:36] - Discover Others to Discover Yourself

Selflessness heals our own wounds

After a long period of depression and hopelessness, how did Justin pull himself out of it? Not by working on himself — but by discovering the service of others. It was when he lost himself in the trials of the Mbuti people that he discovered his own purpose, passion, and personal joy.

The lesson for us: if you feel lost, sometimes you’re better off looking for the needs of others than looking for yourself.

[12:58] - The Winner is the One with the Most Reasons to Fight

What Justin’s mindset in the ring teaches us about living outside the ring

Many people think that the stronger, better trained fighter is the one who wins. What Justin knows from being in the ring himself is that this isn’t always the case. The person who wins is often the one who is less willing to lose. Or, to put it another way, it’s the person with the deepest reason to win.

When you discover a reason to fight that’s deeper than the opponent — and in life, often the opponent isn’t a someone but a something — then you’ll discover a depth of fortitude you didn’t know you had, and a will to win that will help you conquer anything.

[16:03] - Change the Fight but Keep Fighting

What we can learn from the world’s most loving fighter

Justin describes how he went from fighting against people to fighting for people when he discovered his passion for serving the people of the Mbuti culture. But what’s worth noting is that Justin didn’t change his fighter’s spirit. He didn’t suddenly become a kumbaya, zen-loving individual who let the world wash over him in peace. Hell no. He kept his fighter’s spirit, remained who he was, but applied everything that made him a great fighter to this new fight — the fight for humanity.

We can all change our own personal fights without changing what makes us great fighters.

[30:46] - Justin’s Parting Advice

For the new, nervous, and unsure

Justin acknowledges that taking on big challenges often feels like trying to drain the ocean with an eyedropper. Does it even matter? Will anyon even notice?

But Justin reminds us that every drop represents a human heart, a human life, some level of impact that may be small in the grand scale but enormous on the personal scale. Every single positive impact we make, whether it’s on a massive keynote stage or in a room of ten people, can transform lives.

RESOURCES:

[2:10] About the Mbuti People
[2:49] Fight for the Forgotten

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ABOUT MIC DROP:

Hear from the world’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests’ Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it’s starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.

Learn more at: MicDropPodcast.com

ABOUT THE HOST:

Josh Linkner is a Creative Troublemaker. He believes passionately that all human beings have incredible creative capacity, and he’s on a mission to unlock inventive thinking and creative problem solving to help leaders, individuals, and communities soar.

Josh has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million and is the author of four books including the New York Times Bestsellers, Disciplined Dreaming and The Road to Reinvention. He has invested in and/or mentored over 100 startups and is the Founding Partner of Detroit Venture Partners.

Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award.

Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza.

Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.com

Episode Transcription

Justin Wren:

And so now, whenever I've gotten into a fight and the cage door locks, I'm looking this guy in the eyes and I know that I know, but I also believe that I know he knows, that I have stronger reasons than he does, so I can take him to deeper waters.

Josh Linkner:

Hey, Mic Drop enthusiasts. Josh Linkner here, delighted to be bringing you season two of Mic Drop. I love our conversations with speakers and industry leaders alike so we can unpack the industry and we can all perform better. Let's get after it and get better together.

Maria Cairo:

Mic Drop is brought to you by ImpactEleven, the most diverse and inclusive community built for training and developing professional speakers to get on bigger stages at higher fees with greater impact, faster. They're not just elevating an industry that we all know and love. They work with thousands of speakers to launch and scale their speaking businesses. Accelerating time to success, earning tens of millions in speaking fees, landing bureau representation, securing book deals, and rising to the top of the field. To learn more about the ImpactEleven community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting ImpactEleven.com/connect. That's Impact E-L-E-V-E-N dot com /connect.

Josh Linkner:

My guest today, Justin Wren, knows what it's like to feel like the world is against you. Like many kids, Justin was bullied as a teenager, but he had a dream that kept him going. Fueled by the anger he felt from his tormentors, Justin pursued wrestling in high school, where he became a 10 time state champion, five time all-American, and two time national champion. Justin trained hard and this propelled his dream of becoming a UFC fighter into reality, becoming a champion and an elite athlete. But the pain from his childhood didn't dissipate, and Justin fell into a spiral of depression and addiction that led him on a path toward destruction. As Justin began piecing his life back together, he took several international trips. This led him to the rainforest in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where he came across the Mbuti Pygmies, a group of people persecuted by neighboring tribes and forced into slavery.

On one of his trips, he stayed for a year, living among them and sharing the culture of what he calls "the most bullied people on earth." His encounter with the pygmies left him wondering who was there to help them. And in that moment, Justin stepped out of the cage and founded the nonprofit organization, Fight for the Forgotten. He's become a celebrated keynote speaker, ascending this new mountain with the same discipline and passion that got him to the top of professional sports. Justin shares, "I'm not fighting for myself anymore. I'm fighting for a greater purpose. I'm standing up for the bullied and oppressed and giving a voice to the forgotten."

On today's episode, we cover a wide range of topics including how to train like an athlete, strengthening both your skills and your resolve. How serving others leads to transformation in ourselves. How to overcome imposter syndrome, the mindset that you don't really belong on a keynote stage, in order to create massive impact. From the MMA cage to the keynote stage, from the depths of personal struggle to helping serve the needs of Pygmy tribes in Africa, Justin Ren has lived quite a life. Through it all, he's applied the tenacity of a fighter to become an amazingly purpose-driven professional.

Justin, welcome to Mic Drop.

Justin Wren:

Hey, thank you so much for having me, Josh.

Josh Linkner:

I've so much been looking forward to our conversation as I've gotten to know you and the depth of your body of work and your background and now your renewed intention. But for those that don't know you, which is probably a very few number of people, because you're internationally renowned, give us a little bit of the backstory. How did you first get started in wrestling and MMA, and then ultimately, how did you find your way to the speaking platform?

Justin Wren:

Wrestling, I found because I grew up getting very heavily bullied, and so from that, it was after a peak moment of bullying basically in front of all the cool kids. About two months after that, I found UFC two through 11, or two through nine. It was missing the first one, but when I picked up the VHS tape, I just thought, "These guys don't get bullied." And so it drew me in. And I loved the martial arts of it, so after that, I started reading Black Belt Magazine and there was Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee and these guys. I loved martial arts. And literally from my first time seeing the cover of the UFC on VHS I was like, "I'm going to do that. These guys don't get bullied, so I'm going to try to transform myself or pursue this and see if that will help."

And it became my purpose, or at least my outlet, a really healthy outlet for me. Started in wrestling, so I was really lucky, really fortunate. I had two Olympic gold medalists as my high school coaches. No other high school in the nation had even one, we had two. And so even though I started late, at 15 years old, wrestling, they were able... There's three styles of wrestling. They turned me into a 10-time state champion and a five-time all-American and a national champion in high school, and then a Greco-Roman national champ. And so from that, I knew... I had an injury in wrestling. I broke my arm against an Olympic bronze medalist. I was living at the Olympic Training Center, and I was wrestling against a world champion. I was 18, he's like 35. He's super experienced. And we went out of bounds and a freak thing happened, and it was at Madison Square Gardens. When we fell out of bounds, the way my arm fell, no points are being scored, but all of a sudden it just snapped.

When that happened, I broke it, dislocated it, tore my ulnar collateral ligament, and the first thing I thought after being in pain, like, "Oh, shoot," looking at my arm all twisted funny was "I've never gotten a fight yet." And that was my childhood dream, was to be a fighter. When they said I only had a 30% chance to ever compete again, I just jumped straight from wrestling to MMA as fast as I could. I was the youngest heavyweight in MMA professionally, I was the youngest guy on the Ultimate Fighter TV show, the youngest guy at the UFC ranks, so the youngest at the highest level. It made me mature faster, I think, at least as an athlete. But I had a lot of struggles and ups and down moments. Fighting can be a roller coaster ride. The ups are really, really high and the lows are incredibly low. This last 10, 15 years has all been about leveling out and a steady ascend and trying to keep those swings from going so wide.

Josh Linkner:

An amazing story, and obviously one that... You don't just get to be the height of success that you've achieved by wanting it, you have to do the work. And obviously you did the work. I know you talk a lot about purpose and about resilience and meaning. What was it like? Share with us a little bit about the sacrifices that you made to ascend to that level of world-class. Many people listening say, "I want to be a Brene Brown level speaker." But then they look at there's a lot of work and sacrifice that you need to get there. Tell us what it was like behind the scenes, because all we see is you in the lights looking amazing, and our first instinct is, "This person is so naturally talented, they're so gifted from God that they don't even need to work at it." I'm sure it's quite the opposite.

Justin Wren:

I would say one of my strengths has been being incredibly coachable, so listening and then taking action. If someone that is further ahead of me tells me what to do, I'm going to do it. I'm at least going to workshop it and take what works for me and maybe leave the rest. But normally, I'm taking a big portion of what they're saying and I'm applying it to my own technique or my own style, my own life and principles and formulating something towards success, like a game plan towards victory. I would say that I wasn't talented. I had those coaches, and I've surrounded myself with elite. That's why I joined ImpactEleven, was because I knew you guys were elite. From the Bureau saying it, from me experiencing it, the most well-run conference I've ever been to at bootcamp, to the mastermind, the community, when I came in, I was like, "This is what I've been looking for in professional speaking."

I did the same thing in wrestling, I did the same thing in boxing, I did the same thing in jujitsu, and I've done that. And kind of cool story, I referenced that Black Belt Magazine, how I used to pick it up and buy it on the shelves and flip through it. About a year or two ago, I was inducted in the Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame. And I used to think, "I'm going to be on this one day," but I would never vocalize that to anybody else. It would just be internal. And then I was on the cover of Black Belt Magazine and in there. It's a long journey to get there, but it's so worth it.

When I started, I lost every single wrestling match for the first year except one, by one point. And my coaches told me, "We're going to stop trying to teach you a hundred different moves that you're doing 10 times at practice. These other kids have been wrestling their whole lives, and so they can pick up on things quick. You're going to have two moves that nobody else can stop. They can know it's coming, yet you're going to get it because you've done it 10,000 times, a hundred thousand times."

I didn't win right out the gate, and guys would hold me down and laugh in matches. I had a guy turning me over with a half Nelson an knee me in the nose on purpose, blood spurting out, and he's laughing while he's pinning me. And there was nothing I could do. Literally zero, because I didn't know what to do with my body. I was timid and I would hesitate and I would telegraph my moves, because I grew up bullied, so I was already hesitant going onto a match with a big strong guy at the heavyweight division and me being younger than them.

But my coaches were like, "Hey, just go out there and try. Wouldn't you rather workshop this on the mat?" And that's where you're going to learn. Mat time, mat time, mat time, probably just like stage time, stage time, stage time. Get those reps in. I've been able to do that in the speaking career too, where my first a hundred speaking engagements were in prisons. From Folsom to San Quentin, to juvenile detention to Texas Death Row or Corcoran State. I was in the same hallway as Charles Manson before he passed, and he was sick at the time. But it was my training grounds. I'm going to go in here, and if I can hold an audience in a prison or a juvenile detention center, or a kid meowing during it, trying to be like a heckler, how do I stay focused, stay on point? How instead of maybe with that kid heckling, I'll never forget it, because I was trying to figure it out for 10 minutes. Is there a cat in here? And whenever I finally saw him do it, I was, instead of scolding him or getting onto him or getting one of the guards to get him out of there, I involved him. I started talking with him. I pulled him up and I did a fun MMA demo where I taught him a move. He felt some of my moves, and then all of a sudden he sat down. He was quiet. He was so grateful afterwards.

And so whether it's a high school or a prison, like holding that audience, you can hold any audience, but it's workshopping these things and figuring out what works, what lands, what sticks, what doesn't. And then going back to the drawing board and being at least creative enough to say, I need to fine tune this aspect.

Josh Linkner:

I love so many things, Justin, that you said there. You talked about doing the work, the less glamorous work to get in the big room. There's this wonderful boxing quote, I'm sure you've heard, I've always loved that champions don't become champions in the ring. They're merely recognized there, which is a nod to all the hard work and the sacrifice that's required to get that big shot. And you did the work both in fighting and of course in speaking, doing the reps in the less glamorous areas. I loved your open-mindedness, you're willing to change, your willingness to learn, or sometimes we may hit success and then we say, "I'm going to keep doing that," as opposed to always remaining a white belt, always remaining hungry and open-minded.

What I wanted to ask you though is what was driving you through that? So again, so many of us, we see crazy successful people in business and sports who say, "I want to do that. I want to be LeBron James." But very, very, very few of us have the fortitude and the discipline and the sacrifice to do it. And so my question to you is, we'll talk about speaking next, but as you were emerging to becoming a world-class athlete, what was driving you to make those sacrifices?

Justin Wren:

Yeah, I would say, and we've talked about this, but in fighting, a lot of times people, the casual fan or the untrained eye will think it's the person with the strongest physique, the strongest muscles or the best cardio who usually wins. But really it's the person with the strongest reasons. And that has always been a driving force. But I learned that early from two Olympic gold medalists and then five total in wrestling, and then Hall of Famers in the UFC, and guys that have just learned this the hard way. And you can almost see it in a stare down of a fight who wants it more, whether it's the weigh-ins or right before they go out there. And it's not just about who wants it, but who strengthens their reasons and how do you stack your reasons and remember why and who you fight for.

But that was an evolution for me because I had the fighter's mind or the fighter's heart, but then it needed to become bigger than just about me. And so I would say that I think you mentioned LeBron James, or let's think about Kobe Bryant or Tom Brady. Those guys seem to thrive and perform better under pressure. And I think all of us have the same rule book in life, but a lot of us operate from a different kind of playbook, if that makes sense. I've never said that, but we all have the same rules in life, same principles, same standards that we're operating on. But are we going to look at those challenges as opportunities? Can we find the lesson in the failure and even can we find victory in failure? So I think the best athletes aren't necessarily a win or lose mindset, although athletes, it's hard for us to lose. It's a win or learn. You win or you learn and you go back to the drawing board and you come back.

And so you have to rise up, overcome. And I think that you can apply those principles from sport to life. And now I'm trying to apply it to a bigger fight in life through a nonprofit and through the foundation and through real community development that clean water saves lives and new land and growing food through sustainable agriculture and building homes and all this, that matters to me and to them. And so now whenever I've gotten into a fight and the cage door locks, I'm looking this guy in the eyes and I know that I know, but I also believe that I know he knows that I have stronger reasons than he does. And so I can take him to deeper waters. I can take him past the point that he's willing to go because my reasons are that, there's not going to be any quit in me.

Josh Linkner:

It's not about your talent or your physique. It's about the person with the most important reasons.

Justin Wren:

Yeah.

Josh Linkner:

Love that. Love that. So you've had these many chapters. You started, you mentioned you were bullied, then you became the opposite of that, this incredible athlete and fighter. And now you're in a new chapter, you're actually in a couple of new chapters. You're a humanitarian, you're a philanthropist, you're an activist, and of course you're a speaker. Help us understand that shift. You told me one time that you went from fighting to doing something different. Maybe unpack that for us.

Justin Wren:

Yeah. I would say that my life changed when I went from fighting against people to fighting for people. And what I mean by that is, yeah, I'm a fighter turned humanitarian, but at the end of the day, I just want to be a dude who puts love and compassion in action and builds better lives and leaves the world better than I found it. And through my story, these ups and downs, I'm a two time suicide survivor. I've been to treatment twice in my life for rehab, substance use disorder. And that journey started probably from the unhealed wounds of being bullied. But also after that elbow surgery, before I ever started my MMA career, I was addicted to Oxycontin. I got pulled into that Oxycontin epidemic and was told it was not addictive. Told, "You can take as many of these as you want for the most part." And I had three doctors that were giving me hundreds, hundreds of them. And what I liked about Oxycontin was that there wasn't a hangover really. And I could actually still go train, until it got unmanageable.

So the journey for me, it was really dark, but I think I wouldn't have the appreciation in life and the gratitude in my heart. And this might not be for anyone listening, but for you, Josh, when I wake up in the morning, I literally have a moment where I just have to almost pinch myself. And I'm like, "I am grateful for the breath in my lungs. I'm grateful for the beating heart in my chest." I narrowly escaped death twice from my own hand. But I've had malaria, not once, twice, but five times. I lost 33 pounds in five days through the work in Africa. And it was all worth it because I got to understand what they were going through in a different kind of perspective, not just hearing about it or reading about it, but actually feeling it, experiencing it.

And so that journey to go from fighting against people to fight for people, when I first went to Africa and was living in the Congo rainforest with the Pygmy people, I just wanted to live with them, listen to them, learn from them so that we could love them in a practical, tangible, sustainable way that truly empowers them, equips them with the right tools, educates them with the right knowledge and empowers them to be the change in their own community. And for me, that's a little bit of the difference, and I'm going a little bit all over, but the difference between what most people think of charity, we say we do opportunity rather than charity. That opportunity can be great, but opportunity is just always better. And so in the traditional sense of the word charity, people think of handouts. And I think those should be reserved probably for natural disaster, war, famine, people with disabilities who cannot help themselves, and people facing poverty, even extreme oppression.

I literally for a full year, lived with a hunter-gatherer tribe that was enslaved, and they just asked for an opportunity. And there was these transformative conversations, these campfire conversations, fireside chats, if you will. And that's where I learned the most. That's where the Pygmy people took me to school and taught me about their needs; land, water, food, freedom. And I never thought any of that was going to be possible. And then more and more opportunities started coming together and they started teaching me some African proverbs, which one of them is, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And I love that one.

We need community, we need tribe, we need each other, we need people. And they live it and breathe it though. It's in their DNA, it's second nature to them. They celebrate together, they struggle together. All these things that are beautiful and it's really inspired me. So anyway, so to say, a quick thanks of gratitude is I found my tribe stateside, and that's Impact 11. And it's been so good to me. It's been the most generous community in the States that I've ever experienced, and I've learned more in three months being in this community than have a 12 years speaking on my own. So thank you.

Maria Cairo:

Becoming a keynote speaker is an amazing profession. The top performers earn millions while driving massive impact for audiences around the world. But the quest to speaking glory can be a slow rot with many obstacles that can knock even the best speakers out of the game.

If you're serious about growing your speaking business, the season pros at Impact 11 can help. From crafting your ideal positioning, to optimizing your marketing effectiveness, to perfecting your expertise and stage skills. As the only speaker training and development community run by current high level speakers at the top of the field, they'll boost your probability of success and help you get there faster. That's why nearly every major speaker bureau endorses and actively participates in Impact 11. The Impact 11 community provides you unparalleled access to the people, relationships, coaching and accountability that compresses your time to success. To learn more about the Impact 11 community, schedule a free strategy session today by visiting impacteleven.com/connect. That's impact E-L-E-V-E-N.com/connect.

Josh Linkner:

Well, that's awesome, man. And you said so many wonderful things. I want to ask you, how did you go from being a kid with a broken arm in Madison Square Garden to becoming a professional athlete mostly I would imagine domestically to living in Africa? That's not a normal transition. That's not a logical or obvious one. So my question is how did that happen? Why Africa? How did you get involved in this pygmy tribe thing? And then also you talked about reasons, and I want to stay with that. What were the reasons?

So not only how did you end up there, but why did you end up there?

Justin Wren:

Yeah, that's a great question. It's a bit of a long story, but I'll summarize it by saying whenever I was trying to break out of addiction, the best thing that came to me intuitively, but also people telling me was if I help somebody else, it's going to benefit my life too. And that's not why you do it, but as you help others, it is just natural. It helps you. So I started at a children's hospital, the Denver Children's Hospital, and I was on the oncology unit, and I was nighttime basically staff for that year of me trying to build a new foundation in life.

I was like I have to stop the way that I'm living. So I stepped away from fighting professionally and I was volunteering at the Children's Hospital, the Denver Rescue Mission in inner city at-Risk youth group. And I was busy. I wasn't making money, which was hard, but I was broke as a joke. It was gnarly. But whenever I got the opportunity to go to Africa for the first time with this guy named Caleb. He's actually there right now and he just drilled his first water well, which is incredible because I've been doing this work now for 12 years, and I'm like, you got to get in water someday and he's there.

And he said, wow, the reward of this is incredible. But I heard him at a speaking engagement. And so a speaker changed my life, and not just temporarily, but literally changed the trajectory of my life. I was fighting for me, now I get to fight for others. I'd already started kind of small. I believe no act of kindness, no matter how small ever goes wasted. And I had this thought come in my mind. I heard the quote, "What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?" And then I've interpreted that and internalized that as what meaningful impact would I make if I only knew I could?

And so what meaningful impact would you make if you only knew you could in your community, in this world, for your friends and family, for your company, for your customer, your client? That's at the forefront of my mind and at the center of my heart. And it's like I'm deeply rooted in that thought impact. How do I generate impact? If we think of some of the people, Joe and Bridgette from the community and Impact 11 experiences are our wealth in life, I think impact is our legacy. Impact is I want this nonprofit fight for the forgotten to outlive me, outshine me, outgrow me.

I get to be the mouthpiece for now, but I hope it's a movement that really mean something that matters to the pygmy people. And it's been amazing. So while I got there, the world opened up. Caleb took me after I met him at his talk three and a half weeks later, we're with the pygmy people. And I thought of saying no to going. There was war. There was conflict. The rebels took over the airport. I tried to get out every way from this invitation. And him and his wife, who was pregnant, said, if you don't go, you'll never know.

You'll always wonder what could've, should've, would've happened. And so that's the thing that they feared haunting them at the end of life. And so Caleb's like, we're going now or never. And I'm like, okay, I guess we're going now. And so we went. I met them, fell in love with them, Caleb too. But Caleb and my buddy Colin that went, they never went back. But I met these people that said they had no land. They're enslaved. Their slave masters are saying, what are you doing with my property? I own these people.

On my second trip, I held a young boy named Andy Bo that died in my hands and blood came out of his ears and I dug his grave. And it wasn't just dirty water that killed him, it was also discrimination. So his slave master, well, the nurse told his mom the first time she went to the hospital, you're too dirty to come in here. The second time they begged for enough money. It was $1 for the pills. It was $3 for the one shot cure. It's too late in the game for the pills, so he needed the shot, the whole village, the entire community, about 100 people, maybe 85 begged because they don't get paid in money.

They get paid in scraps or half a bar of soap for a family. And they took three and a half dollars of Congolese Franc because they begged for that. They took a chicken, they took charcoal, they took firewood, they took everything they could. And the doctor said, you don't get it. We won't waste our medicine on a pygmy animal and turned them away. And I couldn't believe it. And I went out and I bought after Andy Bo died, which forever changed my life, it ripped my heart apart. And I was crying and upset. And the slave master says why didn't you help take care of him?

He said, it's cheaper to bury him than to keep them alive. And I was holding a $6 shovel. I was looking at a $30 casket, and I was just like, that's just not true. So that right there, I couldn't make any sort of promises, and this is much bigger than me. But when they said, what about we need some land of our own that we can live free on, we need water, and we need water for our oppressors too because their kids are dying. I've attended five funerals from the slave master tribe with the [inaudible 00:28:17], the non-pygmy people.

I've attended five funerals of their kids under the age of five years old because they're dying of dirty water, so they're facing extreme poverty as well. And so my mind started churning and through these conversations they're like, we could do this, we could do this, we could do this. So land, water, food, if we'd farm for ourselves, we hunt and gather, if one day we could have education. And literally they were drawing basically a game plan, formulating a game plan with a stick in the dirt, almost like stick in the sand.

And I just knew I couldn't promise them land, water, food, all this stuff. Eventually freedom, homes, a school, a hospital, none of that I could promise. But they asked me, can you help us have a voice? We don't have one. And so coming back to the US, I'm like I'm American. I have free speech. Being a fighter, when do I win a fight? I can grab the microphone and talk on their behalf. When I go on a podcast or Joe Rogan's or whoever's it is, it's like I have an opportunity to share not just my story, but their story.

And I'd much rather share their story than mine. And it's just kind of blossomed and grown to where now it's over tens of thousands of people have donated from all 50 states, more than 60 different countries. And it's been a wild journey thinking just this little passion project could morph and grow and be, I think, standalone. Not standalone, but just set apart as something different. It's whole community development. It's not just water. It's not just sustainable agriculture.

It's like for these people, basically every human needs land, water, food, education, health and livelihoods. They need jobs. And so if we can address those and meet those needs, if we can find a solution to those basic problems, then we're off to the races.

Josh Linkner:

It's amazing, man. Most people see suffering and they say, well, I don't have the time, money, inclination, whatever. And the fact that you dove in with all your heart and invested yourself in this is such a beautiful thing. And I love what Caleb said to you, if you don't go, you'll never know. That was true as you shifted from bullying kid to world champion. It certainly applied as you went into Africa, and now it's applying as you enter the speaking industry, or I should say, continue to [inaudible 00:30:35] the speaking industry. My question, Justin, is what would you say to the listener today who is passionate about speaking, perhaps the way that you were passionate about helping kids in Africa?

But maybe they say, well, I don't know if it's for me. I don't know if I can handle it. I don't know if I have the courage, I don't know if I am too busy, or any number of other challenges or excuses. What would you say to them in the spirit of if you don't go, you won't know?

Justin Wren:

Yeah. I would say, I'll even bring something else Caleb said, because I just looked at him and said, dude, this problem's way too big and I'm way too small, and what am I going to do about it or anybody? The visual I got was trying to empty the ocean with an eye dropper. Would it ever matter? Would anyone ever notice? Would they notice? Would I notice even if I dedicated my entire life to this? And Caleb instantly said, hey, you have the wrong perspective, brother. Every drop represents a human heart, a life. And so yes, it matters, every single one.

And that, honestly, I've thought about with speaking, because every audience member, that's a life. That's a story. That's a person. That's a human being. And so how do we impact them and serve them for the greater good, for the greater good of their own life? And so I will say this, I ran from speaking. I grew up, one of the reasons I was bullied. I grew up with a speech therapist from kindergarten to sixth grade. I'm dyslexic. And I graduated high school at 236 out of 237. My English teacher attended my Barnes and Noble book signing and said if there was one student he never thought would have a book, it was me.

And now it's on the summer reading list at the high school. And it's been a fun journey. But honestly, I ran from speaking, I turned down my first nine paid speaking gigs, and this was in that year I sacrificed from fighting. I was getting my life right and I was volunteering. But when they would ask me, I would say, I'm a fighter, not a speaker. I don't have the ability to do that. And I got called out eventually. My flight manager, agent called me with an opportunity, the ninth one, and I'm at the airport, I'm boarding a plane from Vegas to Denver.

And I turned them down and it was for the US Air Force Academy. And I said, "No, man, I can't do that." And he said, "You're an athlete. You aren't good at wrestling, you just have to start trying. And this is an opportunity and maybe you can impact someone that really needs it." I still turned it down, but I called a friend and I said, "Why are these speaking gigs kind of chasing me down? I don't want to do it. I'm not good at it. I'll never be good at it." And he said, "Man, you should take this opportunity." And he asked me if I ever prayed about it. And I'm not a very religious guy but some reason that kind of hit. And I'm like, "No, and I won't." Like, no way. And he said, "Why don't you pray about it when we get off the phone?" I said, "No way. I'll do it when I get home." He said, "No. Right now." And I said, "I'll do it on the plane." He said, "How about right now?" I'm like, "Dude, I'm walking down the jet way."

And I got off the phone and instantly I get a text message, all caps, pray about it right now, exclamation point. And so I just said the simplest little prayer, God, universe, if you want me to speak, you got to slap me upside the head with it. If you don't, I'm not doing it. You got to make it so real it's undeniable. I'm out. This is my biggest fear. It's easier for me to get in a cage than ever on stage. I can fight in front of millions of people, but standing in front of 100 I get nervous because it's bigger than me and I want to impact their lives and I want it to make a difference. The fear of everything, the trauma from growing up and being made fun of how I talked.

So to summarize that story was I sat down on the plane, there's an older gentleman with white hair sitting beside me and he asked me about my shirt. It was a fighting shirt, it was a UFC shirt. So we started talking and about 10 minutes into our flight he says, "Has anyone ever asked you to speak?" And I said, "What?" He said, "Has anyone ever asked you to share your story to be on stage and to pay you for it?" And I was like, "Yes." He goes, "What'd you say?" "I said no. I'm a fighter, not a speaker. I don't have the ability to do that." And he said, "It's not necessarily about your ability. It sounds like you don't have any availability." And I was like, "Oh, that's good. Let's talk that through." He goes, "If you don't put yourself out there and make yourself available to it, you'll never get good at it."

And so he pulled out a yellow legal pad and put it down in front of me and said, "I'm going show you how to share your story and to be a professional speaker." And I was like, "What?" And his name was Jack Murph the Surf Murphy. And he has spoke to more prisoners and he's passed away now, but he was a friend of mine for more than 10 years. He's the one that took me into over 100 prisons. He not only was a world champion surfer, played the violin at the Grand Ole Opry, pulled off the largest jewelry high still in American history at the National Museum of History. It was the Star of India. He started telling me his story. He was arrested and wasn't supposed to be released until 2,244. There was a drug deal. He was a surfer. They made a movie roughly based on his life. The surfers that are jewel thieves or robbers, I think it's called Point Break or something like that. But ESPN's done stuff on him, Sports Illustrated. And it's like, this is the guy that sits next to me on this plane right now-

Josh Linkner:

That was the slap upside that you needed, and obviously that drove you forward.

Justin Wren:

Exactly. He said, "You're coming with me in two weeks to Dallas. Have you ever been to Dallas?" I said, "Yeah, my mom lives there." He goes, "You're coming to visit your mom. You're going to speak with a guy named Keith Davis, and I'm going to be there and watch you." Keith Davis is coming to bootcamp September 17th through the 19th.

And then it is been great because... Well, I still said no. I said, "I can't do this. I'm going to turn it down and maybe in months from now or a year from now, I'll take the opportunity with you." And he said, "No, tell me this. Have you ever prayed about it? Have you ever put it out in the universe? Am I supposed to do this?" And I said, "Yeah." He goes, "When?" I pulled out my phone I showed him the pray about it right now all caps. He goes, "That just happened?" I go, "Yeah." He said, "Tell me what you prayed." I go, "God, universe slap me upside the head with this. Make it real." And so he literally leaned behind me and just put his hand behind and slapped me on the back of the head. He's in his 70s. He goes, "There you go. There's your answer. You're speaking with me in two weeks. You can't say no."

Josh Linkner:

Wow. Wow.

Justin Wren:

And so it's pretty wild. So I would say that you just have to put yourself out there, face your fears. I believe when you face it all, feel it all, that's where the magic happens. That can be the birthplace of miracles in your life and someone else. And it's really stretched me outside my comfort zone. But it's been some of the most I've ever learned. And it's led to me being able to help be a voice for people who, when I met them told me they didn't have one. "We don't have a voice. Can you help us have one?" So me trying to master this craft is helping me give them a voice. And so I'm going to go all in and do everything I can to do it on not just my behalf or for my friends and family and for every audience member, but also do it for the people that I love that, I didn't share this part, but on that story they named me Efeosa Mbuti MangBo.

And so Efeosa means the man that loves us, and I treasure that one. But Mbuti MangBo means the big pygmy. And so I literally changed my name in the UFC, I'm not the Viking anymore. I'm the Big Pygmy. This is my family. They adopted me in. I lived with them for a year in these twin leaf huts that were about four foot tall, I slept on the dirt, had the fires and my blanket. But they changed my life. They changed my life for the better. In fact, they didn't just change my life, in many ways they saved my life. I was a two time suicide survivor like now I have purpose.

And not just that, it's the relationships. Life's about relationships. And I see people that are some of the best at relationships that have not necessarily the materialistic stuff, they might not even have clean water yet, but they rally around each other, love each other and support each other in such amazing, incredible ways. It's like an invitation to me to share that part of their lives with other people because we think it's about stuff.

Josh Linkner:

I think you've done that for us today, my friend. I mean, where some people might see this towering athlete, this incredible human physical performer. I think what you've shown us is something much, much deeper. A deep soulfulness where you're in it to help others and create impact. And in turn, as you mentioned, you're healing yourself and you're going to succeed at the wildest levels, as you already have, but even beyond as a result of serving and creating impact for others. It's a great story of inspiration. I think it's the perfect slap on the back of the head that all of us really need to continue to pursue this calling to help change the lives and hearts of millions of people.

Justin, thank you so much. And I'll just end with one thought. You mentioned an African proverb earlier and one of my favorite African proverbs and it gets back to your point about community and the way that you help those folks in Africa and the way you're helping millions of people today and playing such an important role in many communities, frankly, in your life today. The proverb is that when spiderwebs unite, they can tie up a lion. That any one of us might have our own individual powers, but when we unite, when we connect, we become unstoppable. And you, my friend, I think have helped us become unstoppable today.

Thank you for your time. Thank you for your inspiration and thank you for continuing to make such an important impact in the world.

Justin Wren:

Thank you so much, Josh. I appreciate it being here so much. Thank you for impacting my life.

Josh Linkner:

This may be one of our farthest ranging conversations on Mic Drop, from a guest who not only shows strength but soul. Here are some of my favorite insights.

Number one, it's when we open our eyes to the needs of other people, even those who are different from us, that we begin to understand how to find our own self and purpose.

Number two, Justin's shift from fighting against people to fighting for people gave me the chills. It makes me think about my own life, both personally and professionally, and where I can shift my fight from against to for.

And number three, I absolutely love the notion that the winner isn't the person with the greatest strength, natural talent or power, but rather the person with the greatest reasons. If we want to win at the highest levels in business and life, we need to deepen our reasons. Justin may appear to be a warrior on the surface, but his heart is far stronger than his biceps. His passion to lift others up is inspiring, and I'm confident that his next championship belt will be in the arena of professional speaking.

Thanks so much for joining me on another episode of Mic Drop. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. If you love the show, please share it with your friends and don't forget to give us a five star review. For show transcripts and show notes, visit micdroppodcast.com.

I'm your host, Josh Linkner. Thanks so much for listening, and here's to your next mic drop moment.